51ÂÜÀò
On today’s episode, Tim speaks with Michael Wear, President and CEO of the Center for Christianity and Public Life and author of the book, The Spirit of Our Politics: Spiritual Formation and the Renovation of Public Life, on features of Christian faithfulness and civic engagement. Michael talks about his role as a faith advisor in the White House during the Obama administration, and they discuss the influence of Dallas Willard and the role of spiritual formation in the context of political life, with particular interest on the role anger plays in our political aims and discourse.
Transcript
Tim Muehlhoff: Welcome to The Winsome Conviction Podcast. My name is Tim Muehlhoff. I'm a communication professor at 51ÂÜÀò, and co-director of 51ÂÜÀò's Winsome Conviction Project that seeks to expand our dialog with compassion, civility, perspective-taking.
A fun thing about this podcast is over the years, we get to bring on friends who are just doing it right. And one individual, Michael Wear, who is the founder and president/CEO of The Center For Christianity and Public Life, a non-partisan, nonprofit institution based in the nation's capital, whose mission is to contend for the credibility of Christian resources in public life, and for public good.
Rick and I have gotten a chance to actually partner with Michael-
Michael Wear: Yes.
Tim Muehlhoff: ... bringing up a new generation. Michael, one of our mission statements is we want to raise up a brand-new generation of Christian communications. You are putting on an amazing camp for emerging Christian leaders.
We'll talk about that in a second, but, Michael's also an author who has written two fascinating books. One, his newest book is The Spirit of Our Politics: The Spiritual Formation and the Renovation of Public Life, which is bringing in a mutual love that you and I have for Dallas Willard.
And then another book Reclaiming Hope: Lessons Learned in the Obama White House 51ÂÜÀò the Future of Faith in America offers reflections on when you were one of the faith advisors to President Obama.
Michael Wear: Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: Michael-
Michael Wear: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: ... welcome to the show.
Michael Wear: It's great to be on. Great to see you.
Tim Muehlhoff: I've heard great things. Michael did chapel for our students today, and with Dr. Mike Ahn, who is one of the co-directors of Winsome Conviction-
Michael Wear: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: And just heard great things about it. So, thanks so much for coming to 51ÂÜÀò.
Michael Wear: Glad to be here. I love this place. Love the people here, and I just love colleges. I get a lot of energy from-
Tim Muehlhoff: It really does keep-
Michael Wear: Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: ... you young.
Michael Wear: Yes.
Tim Muehlhoff: It really, really does.
Michael Wear: Yes. Yes. Yes.
Tim Muehlhoff: Listen, there's two things I want to talk about. First, I absolutely love your book Spirit of Our Politics.
Michael Wear: Thanks.
Tim Muehlhoff: Huge Dallas Willard fan, and just feel like we need more of Willard today more than ever.
Michael Wear: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: But let's start with your other book just for a second.
Michael Wear: Sure.
Tim Muehlhoff: Reclaiming Hope. So, you were ... I think some people hear this, and they're like, "Okay. What is a faith advisor"-
Michael Wear: Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: ... "Anyway?" So, what was that like with President Obama?
Michael Wear: So, my role in the White House was I was in something called The Office for Faith-Based and Neighborhood Partnerships. And so, the mission of that office is to connect nonprofits, religious and otherwise, with the federal government to serve those in need.
And so, that's the function of the office. So, I was working with colleagues at the Department of Health and Human Services, and adoption and foster care programs, fatherhood, and mental health programs. I was working with colleagues at Department of Homeland Security around disaster relief efforts.
And so, at various agencies across the federal government, and then the initiatives that President Obama had. So, President Obama launched an initiative that is still going, in some ways, called My Brother's Keeper that was a fatherhood and mentoring initiative, and that was a government-wide thing. I helped lead some of the portfolio work around combating human trafficking.
And so, a range of issues, and then worked with the president and his team to help the president navigate religious relationships, relationships with religious leaders, and organizations, and issues that matter to various religious communities.
And so, it was an incredible honor. It was three and a half years, and I think people often will say, "Well, gosh, you saw how the sausage is made. You must be ..."
And I'll tell you, I left the White House with a brighter outlook about not just the country, but about the church than when I went in, because I got to work with the best of the church, the best of the country, people who are making sacrifices on behalf of those in need, and it was a joy. Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: Okay. Two questions.
Michael Wear: Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: One, how do you get a job like that? LinkedIn?
Michael Wear: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: How did that happen? And then second, did you get time with President Obama?
Michael Wear: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: Okay. So, first, how does one step into that?
Michael Wear: Yes. So, it was a providential ... I was attending college at George Washington University. I was supposed to be leading a group of students to an event at the Washington Hilton Hotel. I just passed this hotel three days ago.
I get to the hotel, it's empty, but I'm 18 years old, what do I know? I go, "I'll walk around this hotel. I'll find where this event is." And after 10 minutes of wandering around the hotel, I ask a receptionist. And she goes, "Oh, honey. That's not for another couple days." I just had the complete wrong date. Just the complete wrong date for this event.
And so, I'm embarrassed and dejected. I'm walking out the lobby of this hotel, and as I'm walking out the lobby, then-Senator Barack Obama is walking in from meetings with folks who were in town a couple days early for this event.
And I told him I wanted to work for him. I'd followed his career. He gave a speech in 2006 in which he said that left-wing secularists were wrong to ask people of faith to leave their faith outside the door of politics. He called it a practical absurdity. He said, "Our laws are by definition a codification of morality." And so, it's a practical absurdity that we would ask some citizens to leave the grounding for their sense of their moral convictions outside of a democratic politics.
And I was really moved by that. And so, 10 months later, I was in almost literally the cornfields of Iowa, Field of Dreams-
Tim Muehlhoff: Wow.
Michael Wear: ... and I was an intern on the campaign, but then he went to the White House, and I went with him. Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: And had conversations about faith with him and-
Michael Wear: Yeah. Prayed with him. Briefed him in the Oval Office. Worked with him on issues. Now I don't ... This was now, gosh, more than 15 ... That's crazy to think about ...
So, I was not in the inner circle, I was not a senior staffer, but I got to have serious exchanges with him, and brief him, and work there, and ... Yeah. And serve him in that way.
Tim Muehlhoff: To have the evangelical perspective-
Michael Wear: Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: ... to have the evangelical voice be present-
Michael Wear: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: ... and with agreements and disagreements-
Michael Wear: Yes.
Tim Muehlhoff: ... I'm sure-
Michael Wear: Yes. Yes. Yes.
Tim Muehlhoff: ... what a divine appointment, and access-
Michael Wear: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: Boy, that's just awesome.
Michael Wear: And there were. There were disagreements, but I was there ... The phrase, "You serve at the pleasure of the president" is I think an important one to keep in mind. And there were, and continue to be, core aspects of who he is, and I respect him a great deal even with those disagreements.
Tim Muehlhoff: Oh, man. So, next to being on this podcast, would you say that was the second-greatest highlight of your-
Michael Wear: I'm looking around this studio, and it's vaguely reminiscent of the Oval Office. I am just as intimidated [inaudible 00:08:14]-
Tim Muehlhoff: Let's end the show right there. Thank you.
Michael Wear: Yes. Yes. Yes.
Tim Muehlhoff: Wow. That's really cool. Talk about a divine appointment.
Michael Wear: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: You being there early-
Michael Wear: Right.
Tim Muehlhoff: ... because of a seeming mistake.
Michael Wear: Right. Yes.
Tim Muehlhoff: And there comes Senator Barack Obama.
Michael Wear: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: That's really cool. That's really cool. Okay. Let's talk about another person who had a big impact in your life-
Michael Wear: Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: ... as well as everybody is Dallas Willard.
Michael Wear: Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: I think we all drink from his fountain. His insights are amazing. I'm reading a book posthumously done, put together from lectures and notes. It's just really-
Michael Wear: A Scandal of the Kingdom, or-
Tim Muehlhoff: The Scandal of the Kingdom-
Michael Wear: Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: ... his parables.
Michael Wear: Yes. Becky Heatley just did a wonderful job with that book, his daughter, and Jane, they did a stellar job with it. Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: Okay. So, before we get into The Spirit of Our Politics, which is just an amazing book, why Willard? What was your introduction to Willard?
Michael Wear: How long is this podcast? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. There's so much I could say. There are deeply, deeply personal, and then the philosophical and theological, and the outlook, which are interconnected. I resonate ...
Dallas had a difficult childhood, and Gary Moon's biography is fantastic.
Tim Muehlhoff: It is.
Michael Wear: And I didn't learn about all of this until after, but you read Willard, and it comes through so clearly. He wouldn't dwell on it, he was never someone who would complain about what a difficult life he had, but he had a difficult childhood. One in which a theology, a God of platitudes, and comfortable language was not sufficient for him.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah.
Michael Wear: Dallas was, "If it's not real, I don't want it. I need a theology, and a God that can hold up to the reality of my life, because if it's not real, I need to find some other strategy for contending with what I'm ... If it is real, then like the parable in Matthew, I'll sell everything I own to buy the field just because the treasure is there." And so, I deeply resonate with that.
I also think Dallas ... In the book, there's an opening chapter that sets some context for the times we're living in, but the second chapter is on a concept Dallas developed called The Disappearance of Moral Knowledge. And I just find this to be one of those underlying currents of all of our political debates, and cultural malaise right now, and just very briefly, it refers to this idea that in the post-World War II environment, gatekeepers of knowledge, principally, means academics, treated Christianity as not offering knowledge, not counting as publicly available knowledge that's fit for decision-making.
And that leads to some misdiagnoses, and some ... Really limits the toolbox, and directs the tools that we use in some unhelpful ways that we're dealing with ramifications of that now.
So, yeah. There's so much I could say about Dallas, but those are two things that-
Tim Muehlhoff: I love that. He was so prophetic. By the way, one of my ... I've been here at 51ÂÜÀò 21 years. My favorite faculty retreat is he came-
Michael Wear: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: ... and he spoke on following the shepherd, but the cool thing they did is they had an art student, the entire time, he spoke was making pottery. As he's talking about the great potter, she's making pottery, and then all of us got the pottery that she made at the end.
Michael Wear: Oh, wow. Oh, that's fantastic.
Tim Muehlhoff: I think it was one of the last times Dallas spoke-
Michael Wear: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: ... publicly. It was-
Michael Wear: [inaudible 00:12:34] wonderful.
Tim Muehlhoff: And I have it in my office, that piece of pottery-
Michael Wear: Oh, that's great.
Tim Muehlhoff: It's just great. All right. There's so much about your book. We just don't have time to unpack all of it.
Michael Wear: Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: So, let me go to two parts that I absolutely love. You have a really interesting phrase that I just want you to unpack, "Affirm those you oppose, critique those you support."
Michael Wear: Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: I'm sure our listeners are going, "Wait. I'm sorry. I must have misheard that."
Michael Wear: Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: "What was that?" But I love that.
Michael Wear: Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: Unpack that just a little bit.
Michael Wear: Yeah. So, this runs counter to the impulses and incentives of our day, but if what we're about is true, if what we're about is ... If what we're about is dealing with reality as it is, we want to be the kind of people who are able to see the flaws among those that we consider our closest peers and partners in the milieu that we're a part of, and we want to be able to see what those that we may not always agree with, what they have to offer that's to our benefit, and to the benefit of the broader public.
And so much of the money, and the infrastructure, and just the group incentives are towards blinding us towards the legitimate, sincere, rational, worthwhile claims of those who we can come to view as just obstacles to getting what we want.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah.
Michael Wear: And so, we want to counter that. There are a lot of ways to counter that, but I think there are a number of spiritual disciplines that are helpful here, but speaking practically, like, "Look at your social media field." If in your last 20 posts all you've done-
Tim Muehlhoff: Yup.
Michael Wear: ... is, "Affirm how great your own side is," and critique how awful the other ... Again, quote unquote, the other side is, then maybe that's a cause for reflection.
Is it really the case that my side ... And if we're talking politically, and we're talking about political party, I guarantee you, your political party, no matter what it is, has made a fundamental change in position itself in the last five, or 10 years.
And so, you can't be right all the time, if you're changing your opinion every five, 10 years. That's the nature of our political parties. We got to have a sense of distance.
And one of the problems with our politics right now is it's affiliational in nature. And so, we view these things as identity markers, but that's not what politics is. That's not what it's meant for. And so, we need to break down some of that logic.
Tim Muehlhoff: But what benefit is there for breaking it down? So, we talked about ... Listeners, you've heard about the third conversation-
Michael Wear: Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: ... all the time. So, we had that middle conversation. Then we have a conversation with ourselves and the Lord, the pre-conversation. But then we've learned there is the post-conversation I have with my in group.
Michael Wear: Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: And when-
Michael Wear: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: ... the in group, what benefit do I get from my in group? What encouragement do I get from doing exactly what you said? Right? Why should I do that? It rocks the boat, and these are my friends-
Michael Wear: Right.
Tim Muehlhoff: ... our kids play together.
Michael Wear: Right.
Tim Muehlhoff: I'm not rocking the boat to be more balanced.
Michael Wear: Yes.
Tim Muehlhoff: What would you say?
Michael Wear: So, what you just said in there ... Right? This is not about being devil's advocate. This is not about being contrarian. This is about an earnest pursuit of what's real? What's legitimate?
And so, if you're with healthy people, then what you might give them an opportunity to do is say, "That's a good point. I wonder if there's a refinement we need to make to our position that accounts for that? Even if we don't change the end we're seeking, I wonder if there's a refinement that can mitigate some of the concerns that they have, that could actually ..."
I don't mean to make this utilitarian, but I think we need to stop being defensive as Christians about the fact that what's real and true and good might also have some practical benefits.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah.
Michael Wear: It may have utility, and it also may be transcendent. And I think this is one of those cases where it can have some real utility towards making sure that you're standing on the right mark.
And it's gracious, it's honoring of the dignity of other people, it allows you to ... Paul writes about it in Galatians to bear another's burdens. We can't bear another's burdens if we're only interested in what us, and our in group thinks is important, and what burdens us.
And so, yeah. There's great opportunity, beauty, and faithfulness to be found in that idea of supporting those that you oppose, and critiquing those that you generally align with.
Tim Muehlhoff: So, we're probably going to have to stop the demonization of the other side.
Michael Wear: Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: Because it makes no sense. If I demonize the other side, then what is their good, gracious-
Michael Wear: Right.
Tim Muehlhoff: ... valuable about their perspective? We've already demonized them.
Michael Wear: That's right.
Tim Muehlhoff: And so, maybe that language ... And we often mask it in humor.
Michael Wear: Right.
Tim Muehlhoff: We often make these jokes-
Michael Wear: Yes.
Tim Muehlhoff: ... and it's going to take I think raw courage to say to the in group, "Look, you know I am one of you."
Michael Wear: Right.
Tim Muehlhoff: "Without a doubt."
Michael Wear: Yes. Yes. Yes.
Tim Muehlhoff: "But I just can't speak about that person this way anymore."
Michael Wear: Well, and here's what happens, which is you end up not being able to say the thing that you know is right.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Wear: You end up in a totally reactionary space, and you could see this in our politics totally.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah.
Michael Wear: So, you have a ... There's a study that I talk about in my book around this concept, political sectarianism. And I won't break it down fully here, but these social scientists ... And it's 16 of the top social scientists in the country. They say something powerful about the nature of polarization today. They say out-party hate has become a more powerful predictor of voting behavior than in-party love.
In other words, so, Tim, here is the secret. Right? You think that you're being loyal to the in group by being oppositional towards the out group. What actually happens is you end up willing to harm yourself, and those in your group, because the center of gravity, the whole orientation is a reactionary one of opposition even when it would be in your own interest to see their point of view-
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah.
Michael Wear: ... to honor their claim, to partner with the out group in some way. And so, again, it puts to a lie the fact ... People who say, "Well, look, I have my team, I play for the team ..." The point of this social science research, and I think this can be supported by scripture, and is supported by scripture is ...
My board chair James Catford, the board chair at Center for Christianity in Public Life says ... He says, "There's an interesting thing about Jesus. Wherever you try to draw a line, you can, typically, find Jesus on the other side of it."
That's an amazing thing to think about.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah.
Michael Wear: And to contemplate.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah. Yeah. Friend of sinners.
Michael Wear: Yes.
Tim Muehlhoff: Friend of sinners.
Michael Wear: Exactly right.
Tim Muehlhoff: His table of fellowship was so radical.
Michael Wear: Yes.
Tim Muehlhoff: Boy, that's great. Oh, Michael, come on. All right. I want to ask one more thing. In the book, you speak of the allure of gentleness in today's politics.
Michael Wear: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: Here's a great quote, "While our culture bends towards affirming anger, Augustine advises that our dispositions should be to resist for the sake of our souls, the temptation of cultivating even anger that stems from true and direct wrong against us."
See, this is ... I want to use that as a launch point. What we love to ask people here at this podcast is, "Okay. What is distinct about what the Christian communicator brings?"
Michael Wear: Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: Right? Is there anything different? Boy, if we look at social media, the-
Michael Wear: Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: ... answer seems to be a resounding no.
Michael Wear: Yeah. Right.
Tim Muehlhoff: But in your estimation, what should be true of the Christian communicator? As we hold to our convictions, what makes us distinct?
Michael Wear: We see reality for what it is. And we take seriously the insight that Jesus had into human nature. Like, Jesus understood something about anger. It's not just that we have a teaching about it. It's not just, like, "Oh, yeah. We have these scriptures that we read about anger, and they're important to me, because we read them growing up."
No. This is knowledge. It's knowledge the world desperately needs. It is now, like, an unassailable trope ... You could read this in your local newspaper, or you could read it in The New York Times, what makes for a successful candidate? That they're able to channel anger effectively.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yup.
Michael Wear: Now if one candidate wins an election one year, and then loses it two, or four years later, if they win, it's because they channeled anger effectively. If they lose, it's because they didn't channel ...
Here's one of the Christian insights on anger, which is that the folly is that you think you can use anger for your ends. The Christian insight is that anger uses you.
Look, I've been ... Willard said, "There's nothing you could do with anger that isn't better done without it." That's a really interesting thing to think about.
Tim Muehlhoff: What an interesting quote.
Michael Wear: And I will talk with ... I did an event with Christian pastors, and one pastor in the group goes, "We have a high degree of confidence in the legitimacy of our anger, and what we can achieve with it, and a deep sense of fear of what we would do without our anger."
But that's something to wrestle with with Jesus. Like, take that question to the Holy Spirit. And Willard, sort of, the counter ... That picture of anger with something else.
In my events the last few years, I've asked people ... Well, I've told people, "Willard defined joy as a pervasive and constant sense of wellbeing." I've asked people, "How many of you would describe our politics as full of a pervasive and constant sense of wellbeing?"
Tim Muehlhoff: My goodness.
Michael Wear: Now what does it say about us that that's a laugh line?
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Wear: Like, what does it ... And if we can't find joy in politics, in that sometimes politics touches us very directly, though, I'll be honest, I've found the people who find the greatest offense at this are not those who are directly affected by politics, but by those who are engrossed with the entertainment of politics.
Tim Muehlhoff: Oh, yeah.
Michael Wear: But if we can't find joy in the political maelstrom, what happens when your financial life falls apart? What happens when tragedy hits you at home? What happens when your relationship isn't going the way you think it should? What happens when you don't get the promotion that you thought you should have gotten?
In other words, we often think if the church would just clean up its own act, then it would be of some good publicly.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah.
Michael Wear: My view is, like, that's not how spiritual formation works. No. We'll learn to be more faithful to Jesus in our personal lives when we test him, and experiment with him in public life. And we'll learn to be more faithful in public life when we're deeply rooted in spiritual practices of solitude and silence and prayer. Like, we only have one life to live. And we need to offer it all to the Lord, the public and the private.
And so, to view our politics, to view these public conversations as an opportunity for faithfulness, that's a gift.
Tim Muehlhoff: You have a great quote, "I believe politics is a form for loving your neighbor." That's the joy part.
Michael Wear: Yes.
Tim Muehlhoff: The second Great Commandment.
Michael Wear: Yes. Yes. Yes.
Tim Muehlhoff: Okay. Let's end with this. I want to say an amen to everything you said, and people we greatly respect, we always present them with the greatest criticism The Winsome Conviction Project receives-
Michael Wear: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: ... and it's going to directly go with the anger quote-
Michael Wear: Yes. Yes. Yes.
Tim Muehlhoff: ... from Willard.
Michael Wear: Right.
Tim Muehlhoff: Which I had never heard before. That's-
Michael Wear: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: ... brilliant. All right. Here's what we get hit with all the time.
Michael Wear: Yeah. Sure.
Tim Muehlhoff: Jesus overturning tables.
Michael Wear: Yes. Right.
Tim Muehlhoff: The way it's presented to us, you would think he's doing it every chapter-
Michael Wear: Correct.
Tim Muehlhoff: ... of the gospel.
Michael Wear: Right.
Tim Muehlhoff: But it is legitimate to say-
Michael Wear: Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: ... Paul was angry at the Judaizers.
Michael Wear: Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: And Jesus seemed to pick fights with the pharoses and he did overturn a table-
Michael Wear: Yes.
Tim Muehlhoff: ... and that's why we remember it, because it was so-
Michael Wear: Yes.
Tim Muehlhoff: ... strident and strong. Okay. What is your response? And be very careful, because whatever you say we are going to use that as our defense. No. I'm kidding.
Michael Wear: Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff: But what would you say to Jesus overturning tables?
Michael Wear: I trust Jesus with his anger, and I don't trust me with mine.
Tim Muehlhoff: Okay. That was really good. Wow.
Michael Wear: So, anger itself ... Willard's clear on this, anger itself is not a sin. Anger is a natural impulse. It actually can have ... It has helpful functions in society. Anger is the response to having your will crossed.
And so, sometimes I think what we need to be really wary of is cultivating anger, cultivating our anger. And, look, I'm open to being wrong on this, I don't run across too many people who say, "I really need help finding reasons to be angry."
I look around at the world, and I think everyone's happening exactly according to my plan. So, the question isn't whether there are legitimate reasons to be angry, there are, but the question is is there a better response?
The question is, to Augustine's point, even when you admit legitimate anger into your heart, what can happen is ... Augustine's right. It can sour the whole vessel. So, that Willard would say, "You might even discover that you've become an angry person."
Tim Muehlhoff: Wow.
Michael Wear: And so, that's the line that we cannot guard as well as we might think we could. We think that we could be angry about the right things under our control, on our timetable, but you cultivate anger enough, and you'll become habituated to it. And it will habituate you, and that is not a place I want to be.
Tim Muehlhoff: And that's our political climate.
Michael Wear: Yes.
Tim Muehlhoff: It is The Argument Culture Tannen saw in the-
Michael Wear: Yes.
Tim Muehlhoff: ... 1990s, she saw this coming.
Michael Wear: And so ... Right? Like, you have very few people in politics right now who know what they want to achieve. What they all agreeon is that we need to be angry, and then we'll somehow stumble into what we want to achieve.
And so, you end up pursuing anger when before you would have said, "Well, I'm angry, because I have these firmly held principles, and this clear direction about where to go, and I'm being forwarded in that way."
But, exactly, Tim. You get to a point where you even forget what you were angry about.
Tim Muehlhoff: Right. Right. It's so good.
Michael Wear: There is no one ... And, again, I say this, this is not Biblical ... This is based on my experience. There is no one more easily manipulated than the person who is angry. They can be directed just about anywhere you point them. You tell them, "That's to blame for your anger," it's very hard for the angry person to not follow that signal-
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah.
Michael Wear: ... follow that flare.
Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah. Well, if you like what you're hearing, the book is called The Spirit of Our Politics: Spiritual Formation and the Renovation of Public Life. Michael Wear.
Michael, thanks so much for being on our podcast, and we look forward to partnering with you, with the high school leaders-
Michael Wear: Yes. Love you guys, and our high schoolers love you I think even more than I do. At The Center For Christianity in Public Life, we run a program called Public Good Generation, and folks can learn more about it www.CCPublicLife.org. But it's been an immense joy to partner with you and Rick-
Tim Muehlhoff: We have never laughed, legitimately laughed ... These kids were hilarious, and some of the sharpest high school kids I've come across-
Michael Wear: They're incredible.
Tim Muehlhoff: ... in a long time. Thank you so much. If you like The Winsome Conviction Podcast, please give us a like wherever you hear your favorite podcasts. And go to our website www.WinsomeConviction.com. We have a quarterly newsletter. Go ahead and sign up for that. We'd love to let you know what's going on, including partnering with Michael.
Thank you so much. We do not take your listenership for granted. Thank you.
