51蹤獲This week, Sean and Scott discuss:
- How should Christians respond to the assassination of Charlie Kirk?
- Will the of individuals who've attempted to change their sex and regret it?
- A study across 5 continents finds that as long-term mates
- In an Atlantic essay, on their generation
Episode Transcript
Sean McDowell
How should Christians respond to the assassination of Charlie Kirk? Will the CDC recognize the suffering of individuals who have attempted to change their sex and regret it as a diagnosable condition? A study across five continents finds that men and women with multiple sex partners less desirable as long-term mates. In an op-ed for the Atlantic, a high school student bemoans the effects of AI on his generation. These are the stories we will discuss, and we will also address some of your questions. I'm your host, Sean McDowell.
Scott Rae
And I'm your co-host, Scott Rae.
Sean McDowell
This is the Think Biblically Weekly Cultural Update brought to you by Talbot School of Theology, 51蹤獲. Scott, full disclosure here, you and I actually recorded this about an hour before we got the news of the shooting of Charlie Kirk. Normally, we record on Thursdays post-Fridays, but we had to record early, and so when this news dropped, it's been such a big cultural story, we felt we needed to come back and weigh in on this. So hence, there might be a shift in the tone a little bit, a shift in the volume, uh, but we felt it was important enough to weigh into. And so hopefully we can bring a little biblical perspective on this. Scott, what's your thoughts?
Scott Rae
Well, I think fir- first of all, Sean, re- regardless of your political stripes and affiliations, you have to mourn the senseless death of Charlie Kirk, because at the end of the day, two young kids lost their father-
Sean McDowell
Hmm.
Scott Rae
... and w- and will grow up without their f- without their dad, and a, a, a, a d- a dear woman lost her husband. Uh, and I think that's in my, in my view, that's ki- that's the, the major takeaway from this, uh, is the, just the, the senseless tragedy that happened to the Kirk family today. Uh, now, I think the, the commentary that we've read, there's been a ton of it out there. Uh, almost all of it, Sean, was focused on the way Kirk engaged his detractors and, uh, was, was committed to free speech and the exchange of ideas and to debate-
Sean McDowell
That's right.
Scott Rae
... uh, and that his Christian faith was real and vibrant, uh, and was intertwined with his, with his political views. Uh, you know, and Sean, I, I'm, you know, this is just one of a, of a series of what I would call political, acts of political violence just to happen this year. Uh, you know, earlier this year, Molotov cocktails were thrown into the house of the Governor of Pennsylvania. Uh, Melissa Hortman and her husband, she's the former House Speaker of, of Minnesota, they were murdered. State Senator John Hoffman and his wife severely injured by a gunman. Um, and so, and these, th- not to mention others, you know, the, um, Brian Thompson, the Chief Executive of UnitedHealthcare murdered on the street-
Sean McDowell
Hmm.
Scott Rae
... uh, Nan- Nancy Pelosi's husband assaulted and near- and nearly killed. Uh, you know, there, there's a wh- whole host of these things. And it strikes me, you know, I, I wa- and I'm dating myself here, but I, I was in high school-
Sean McDowell
(laughs)
Scott Rae
... I was in high school in the late '60s, and i- particularly in, in 1968 when we had the last, I s- m- I say, major outburst of political violence. And the conditions strike me to being fairly similar today as they were in the late '60s. A very divisive culture, uh, lots of people who felt alienated from the political process, uh, lots, lots of grievance out there that was bubbling beneath the surface, and, you know, a ha- handful of really terrible acts of political violence on MLK and, and RFK, uh, happened in 1968. And so that, that's the, the alarm bell that goes off in me, uh, and again, regar- regardless of your political affiliations, the fact that violence was seen as the solution by so- by some people is deeply, deeply troubling-
Sean McDowell
Hmm.
Scott Rae
... and I think, and I think I've been very encouraged to see, you know, both sides of the political aisle conde- sort of unequivocally condemning political violence, uh, and I think that, I think that's right. Um-
Sean McDowell
Hmm.
Scott Rae
... and I think, you know, in a democracy, Sean, we're committed to free speech, to debate, and to engagement-
Sean McDowell
That's right.
Scott Rae
... and here's, I think here's the, the, the part that we don't often live with very well. At the end of the day in a democracy, we vote, and sometimes our side wins and sometimes our side loses. And the hope in a democracy is that when your side loses, you, the hope is for the next election or the next opportunity to make your voice heard, uh, and po- political violence undercuts some of the, some of the most important aspects of how we order our life together in community. Uh, so that, that's, that's my, my, my initial reaction to this is just-
Sean McDowell
Hmm.
Scott Rae
... it's, uh, it's an inc- incredible tragedy. Re- regardless of how you feel about Charlie Kirk's political views, this is a tragedy that reflects I think conditions that were similar to what we saw in the late 1960s.
Sean McDowell
Hmm. Well, Scott, as always, measured, biblical, thoughtful response. I, I appreciate everything that you've said. This one landed a little differently for me. All the violence things you mentioned, of course, earlier this week, the woman from Ukraine, that story really broke.
Scott Rae
Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell
That was devastating, and I wasn't looking to see that, but one of the downsides of Twitter/X is these things just pop up, and I not only saw a closeup of Kirk's death but a closeup of this girl dying. And, and partly, it makes me want to get off Twitter 'cause I just don't want that stuff in my mind, but this just hit differently-I think in part because if you asked anybody today, "Who's the most recognizable Christian lecturer on the college campus?" Politics aside, you'd say Charlie Kirk. If you go back 40 years ago and say, "Who is the leading lecturer on college campuses who's a Christian?" There's no debate about it. It was my father. Yeah. Now my dad- That's right. ... my dad was not doing politics. He was, of course, doing evangelism, and he was talking about, you know, the resurrection, the Bible, a biblical view of sex. And Kirk was doing more politics, but he would weigh into biblical views. I heard him defend the Bible at times, defend life, and I don't know that I've ever said this publicly, but, I mean, there were a number of times, at least two that I'm aware of, where my dad's life... This must've been... I don't have the date, but probably in the '70s, maybe early '80s, I don't know. Specific threats on his life, like bombs left to try to (laughs) take him out. And so in some ways, this is not anything new, but I think had that happened, maybe I'm not born depending on it, when it was, or I would've been raised without a dad. Yeah. And so instantly, I thought of his wife, and I thought of his kids, and I thought, "You've gotta be kidding me. We've lost our humanity." And, you know, my son said to me... The other reason it was kind of tough is my son, a student at 51蹤獲, like he's followed and just appreciate a lot of what Kirk does, and he was really devastated by this. It affected him. There are many in Gen Z who consider Kirk a hero. They just do. And, you know, one thing that I thought of is... I was thinking about generational experiences that people have. My mom was a Boomer. She remembers exactly where she was when JFK was shot. Of course, she remembers MLK, landing on the moon. I'm an Xer, so I remember when Magic Johnson got AIDS, the Challenger explosion, the Berlin Wall, Rodney King. Millennials, o- of course, you're gonna have the economic downturn of around 2007, 2008, and 9/11. Gen Z, I think you could argue obviously COVID, but the death of Kobe, and the death of Charlie Kirk. That's how significant his life and death was to... I don't know if I could say most, I don't have a study in this, but certainly many within Gen Z, even those who (laughs) disagreed with him and didn't like him politically, would recognize just how significant he was arguably in turning the youth vote in the 2024 election. So I'd encourage someone who's not a Gen Zer, if you have them in your life, just ask them about it, listen to them. What do they think and why? It's an opportunity amidst this to just have conversations with the next generation and how they see the world. But I... My son sent me this news right when my plane was taking off, and he said, "Dad, he's been shot. I don't think he's gonna make it." And I lost signal. Oh. And so it was a couple hours- Yeah. ... until I got it. And honestly, I just... I wept, sitting there in the plane, because of, like you said, what it represents culturally where we're at, his family. There's just so many things that this highlights about our broken moment, and I just thought, "What's, what's a Christian response? What's a biblical response?" Right? You and I have this podcast, but (laughs) we're, we're, we don't, we don't practice it because we have this podcast. We're trying to practice it, and this podcast flows out of what we hopefully practice. And I just thought, "What's a biblical response?" And all I could tweet out at X was just a prayer. And I've come to think that tragedies, and not just this one, personal tragedies, other political cultural tragedies, are a greater chance to trust God. That's really what they are. And so for me, I just sent out a tweet and all, you know, all I wrote in this tweet, just kinda trying to draw attention to what, what had, what had just happened and maybe what a biblical response could be, is I just said, "Dear Lord, please be with Charlie Kirk's family. Give our leaders wisdom. May the shooter be brought to justice, and may you bring some good from this heartbreaking tragedy." You know, people are watching how Christians respond to this, and there's a place for righteous anger, I get it, but let it not be in a way that's not out of a heart of love for God, a love for others, a love for our neighbors. Our response, above all, must be one of love and one of prayer. Now two other quick thoughts that hit me, Scott. It's really interesting to look at how many people have been called out online for celebrating the death of Charlie Kirk. It's hard to know what posts to trust because of AI today. I really don't even know what posts are real and what aren't, but there's so many hundreds that I've seen that some of them have to be legitimate. And there's a tension. You and I could talk about this in more depth sometime, but there's a tension between accountability for people who celebrate somebody's death. I mean there has to be accountability. But do we go so far in cancel culture that now whenever somebody's name is searched, they're forever canceled and can't have any redemption if they own falling short on this? What cancel culture lacks is grace and forgiveness. So we've gotta find a way culturally and personally to hold people accountable for celebrating the death. And by the way, my son said to me, he goes, "Dad, I'd be just upset if Gavin Newsom, on the other side, was killed." (laughs) Just as upset that a life would be taken in this fashion. And so we've gotta work out as a culture and think about ourselves how to navigate that.... last point I would say is it's interesting to see, there's a, there seems to be some fear that's arisen around this. There's fear, I hear people talking about (laughs) like a, a civil war breaking out. I mean, that seems pretty melodramatic, but, you know, some are saying, "This is the tipping point." There's a lot of anger on all sides of this. I've been reading the Gospel of Luke Chapters 1 through 10 daily, and one of the things that hit me, Scott, is that over and over again, we're told, "Do not be afraid." When the Angel Gabriel comes to Zachariah, the Angel Gabriel comes to Mary, Jesus with, uh, with Peter in the boat over and over again says, "Don't be afraid." It's human nature to be afraid of things that are changing around us. I refuse to succumb to that. The Bible says in 1 John 4:18, "Perfect love casts out fear." So above all, we've just gotta ask ourselves, what does it look like to not live in fear? What does it look like to love God? What does it look like to love our neighbor through this? I think that's the question every Christian really needs to wrestle with.
Scott Rae
Let me add a couple of things here, Sean. Those are really good insights. I especially appreciate your part about trusting God in the midst of things that, that leave us, you know, like sort of flummoxed and not, not understanding what's, wha- a lot of what's going on. And I think that's true, it's also true in, in the bigger picture, because like I mentioned before, when, when... In a democracy, at the end of the day, we vote, and I think to tr- w- it assumes that we trust God when our side loses. And, uh, you know, to recognize that, that regardless of who wins or loses politically, God is still on his throne-
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae
... and none o- none of the fine print sca- escapes God's notice in, in these things. And I think, uh, the, the ability to trust God and to not fear in the... even in the midst of when our side loses, I think is a, is a virtue that is, that I think is worth cultivating. I think your point about cancel- you know, canceling those, calling out those who, um, you know, may have, may have said comments that they wish they hadn't, um, I, you know... And I agree. I, I don't want someone to be canceled, you know, based on their, you know, one episode of their worst moments. I certainly don't want to be evaluated based on my worst moments.
Sean McDowell
(laughs) Fair enough.
Scott Rae
Um, and I think th- the other thing that, uh, I just wanted to, wanted to mention on this, um, I wanna say a little bit about how hi- how Kirk's faith was intertwined with his politics, and we've said several times before when we've talked about political matters, uh, that... I think, you k- we've mentioned that no political platform is, is, is gonna be perfect. No political platform is gonna align perfectly with the scriptures. Be- and the reason for that is because no platform was written with biblical faithfulness as its goal.
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae
And so, I think, uh, you know, e- e- every, every political platform is gonna be flawed, and there are gonna be things that, y- you know, f- regar- regardless of wheth- whatever side of the aisle you find yourself, there prob- there are some things in your, your platform that you're gonna have to hold your nose about. Uh, and so I think th- to expect that any one set of political convictions on either side of the aisle is gonna perfectly reflect what the biblical teaching is or the entailments of biblical teaching, I, I think is something we oughta be really careful about.
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm. That's a good word, Scott. You know, one, one last thing I'll point out is, uh, a tweet that he sent not long ago was distinctly on the death and resurrection, and because of Jesus' death, we will live again. You know, again, politics aside, that's not the point here, I love that. And from everything we know, he lived his faith in the way he understood it. He believed in Jesus, and he's with our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. And that's true for everybody who genuinely puts their faith in him. Death does not have the final word.
Scott Rae
Amen.
Sean McDowell
Scott, you and I could talk about this for a long time. Maybe we'll, maybe we'll revisit it in the future. We'll see where things go, but let's move to our second story, which because we recorded this and added it later, I think we call it the first story, but folks, please forgive us if the tone or volume shifts. These stories coming up are still really important and timely. (instrumental music plays) Scott, as usual, some fascinating stories this week I'm eager to get your take on. Let's start with this one that came out. It caught my attention. It's in the Wall Street Journal, and the title is The CDC Can Help Those Disfigured by Gender-Affirming Care. It's by a medical doctor, and it's an opinion commentary. It starts with the story of Chloe Cole, who is now 21. She describes being a tomboy as a child. She didn't like girly things, and started puberty at eight or nine years old, got unwanted attention from boys, and like many kids in the early to mid-2010s, spent a lot of time on social media, video games, which led her to online communities that told her she was really a boy. She came to accept that narrative and believed that she was born in the wrong body. At 12, 12 years old, she came out to her parents in a sense, and said she was transgender at the dining room table. Her parents were concerned, but the doctors pushed her parents to accept the lie this commentary says, and I would agree with that, that she could become a boy. Over the next three years, Chloe Cole was given hormones to delay puberty, testosterone, and then a double mastectomy at around 15 years old.At 16, she realized she had always been a girl, but she had no path back to healing and hope because the medical establishment not only encourages gender, gender transition, but refuses to acknowledge it can ever be a mistake. Uh, it sounds like Chloe Cole still has physical and mental scars with her that will be with her for the rest of her life. Uh, this upsets her when she looks in the mirror. She's not alone. 51蹤獲 14,000 kids have what is euphemistically called gender-affirming care, and that's between 2019 and 2023 alone. Now, this doctor's saying, uh, there's a call on the CDC to create a real classification system to identify and help patients who suffer from attempts to change their sex so they can receive the care that they deserve, and the argument is that without such classification, the medical system treats these patients as if they, their problems are not real. Now, this was really interesting to me, Scott. I never really thought about this, but the CDC maintains the US version of an international database with up to 70,000 medical diagnosis codes, including (laughs) quote, "Burn due to water skis on fire" and "Pecked by a chicken." (laughs) I mean-
Scott Rae
(laughs) Those are dr- real diagnoses?
Sean McDowell
I, I guess so. (laughs) A surprise to me. Now, what they argue in this article is there are codes for patients who try to change their sex, but no codes that speak to regret over the irreversible consequence that follow an attempt to s- attempted sex change or remission in the belief that the patient was born in the wrong body. Now, of course, this article says transgender activists will oppose this. Uh, in of 2022, one activist told a congressional committee that this isn't a real thing. Now, I've got a ton of thoughts on this, but I'm really curious, uh, your assessment of this potential, uh, change.
Scott Rae
Well, two things, Sean, that struck me right off the bat. One is how tragic this story is-
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae
... and how frequently we're seeing it repeated. You know, we've reported-
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae
... probably a year ago, a story from the New York Times that talked about how teen- teenagers who are becoming now young adults have regrets. They thought they were trans, but realized that they're not. And this is much more, much more common than we're being led to believe. Uh, so th- this, this, this Chlo矇 Cole story is a- is absolutely heartbreaking and is being re- repeated more regularly arou- around the world as wha- what I would call the gender ideology matures and these kids who underwent treatments are becoming young adults. The other thing that I think highlights this, uh, and Sean, this is one area where I think i- i- ideology has driven medicine-
Sean McDowell
Hmm.
Scott Rae
... rather than the other way around.
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae
And I do- I don't think these are particularly common in medicine. I do think we are largely data-driven in medicine and largely based on the science. Uh, but I think here, this is, this is one place where I think ideology has gotten ahead of what, what I think would be considered the standard of practice in medicine. Uh, I think the, the tragedy, in my view, Sean, is that the kids who under- underwent these gender-affirming treatments in many cases realized that the treatments did not solve the problems they were facing-
Sean McDowell
That's right.
Scott Rae
... but left them with scars, both inside and out. And I think, uh, the article, I think, uh, very interesting to me, points out that the medical establishment, how loath they are to admit that, that mistakes were made. Uh, and I, I mean, ideology-driven activists who insist that these regrets don't exist, uh, those are, those aren't helping either, but, uh, they, I understand why they admit that, because it wipes out their, their trans narrative.
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae
Um, now, we've, we've reported in, uh, you know, in a n- a number of instances on, on this, uh, cultural update that countries in Europe are sort of backing away from these treatments for adolescents. You know, we've cited the Cass Report in the UK. Uh, and I think the, the most helpful thing to come out of that, Sean, if, if I could remind our listeners, is that the Cass R- Report insists on mental health assessments prior to any treatments-
Sean McDowell
That's right.
Scott Rae
... especially, especially for those adolescents who have not finished puberty. You know, how, how Chloe Cole could've gotten these treatments at age 12, uh, is, uh, that's just astonishing to me.
Sean McDowell
Yeah.
Scott Rae
Uh, because what, what, what we're finding is that the gender issues in many cases, and the Cass Report was very clear about this, that the gender issues are a symptom, not the root cause.
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae
And th- this, you're, you know, the story in the, in the Wall Street Journal, I think, rightly points out that, that, that a, a sizable majority of adolescents give up the trans notion if no gender-affirming treatments are undertaken once they, once they g- get out of puberty and mature and become young adults. And so I, it's strong... Uh, that's what's so sad about this story, is that anyone who feels regrets about having gender-affirming treatments really has nowhere to go.
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae
The, the medical establishment is not gonna help them. The trans community is not gonna help them. Their parents are, are often left at a complete loss as to what to do about this. And guess who has an opportunity waiting in the wings for this? This is, this is the opportunity, I think, for the Church-
Sean McDowell
Hmm.
Scott Rae
... to come and be the, be the place where folks who have gone down this road but have regrets can come and find the, the sorta unconditional love and acceptance and care-... that they need. So I-
Sean McDowell
Hmm.
Scott Rae
... I would see this as a really good opportunity for the church to step into this discussion in a really meaningful way, and to provide what I think a loving, caring community of God's people can provide.
Sean McDowell
I appreciate the sensitivity to the pain behind these stories. Talking about it that way, I think, gives more and more permission for people to share their hurt, who probably have some shame from this, from buying a lie, from changing their bodies in a way that's irreparable. Like, we've got to be willing to talk about this with compassion and kindness to those who have bought a lie. It's a flat-out lie that a boy can become a girl. It's a scientific lie, it's a theological lie. But we've got to speak about it with compassion and invite those stories in, rather than approaching it with judgment, which has often been the way we've done this. So, I think there's a way to speak truth but be compassionate. That's the challenge. Now, the thing that hit me, Scott, is when I'm reading this, I'm asking the question, why, if there're 70,000 diagnosable conditions, including pecked by a chicken...
Scott Rae
(laughs)
Sean McDowell
And I don't know the numbers. Maybe I could have asked AI how many times this happens. (laughs) I live in Orange County, there's not a lot of wild chickens here, so maybe it's more prevalent than I realize. Why would there be resistance to recognizing the hundreds or thousands of more of those who suffer from detransition? And I think the solution to this, the reason, is found in the article itself. It, th- the author says transgender activists will oppose this proposal. They scoffed at the premise that anyone wishes to undergo a sex change back, which of course is just demonstrably false. In 2022, one activist told a Congressional committee that this isn't a real thing. That's why they resist this. Because if you say you recognize detransitioners and the suffers that they experience, then you're calling into question the, quote, "gender affirming care" and the idea that a boy can become a girl. So, ironically, this gender affirming care says it's a real thing that a boy can become a girl, which is false, but refuses to recognize the suffering of individuals like Chloe Call- Cole, which is a real thing. And this just reminded me of the power of, say for example, like, the DSM-5 in psychiatry, the power of legal rulings. Like, some of the Supreme Court rulings that overturned sodomy laws was considered a teacher to society. Oh, it's not illegal, it's not wrong, and played a role in the psyche of people, how they think about this. Well, the DSM-5, as far as I understand it, uh, it's not considered diagnosable that somebody is transgender, which means it can be normalized for a man to identify as a woman. But gender dysphoria is the suffering that sometimes comes along with transgender. And so this would make it real, so to speak, this would identify it, and that's the very thing opponents of this do not want to allow, 'cause it undermines the entire narrative.
Scott Rae
And I think, yeah, this is another example, I think, where A- ideology is driving the DSM on this.
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae
And I think, Sean, what, a- again, I think the, the call for compassion here, I think, is so helpful, because, you know, we know for, for adolescents who suffer from gender dysphoria, and w- that's a, that's a real thing, uh, but they often find a c- a sense of community and acceptance in the trans community. And it's often one of the things that attracts them to the, the notion of maybe going down this road for gender affirming treatments. But once they become a detransitioner, that community is gone...
Sean McDowell
That's right.
Scott Rae
... for them. And they h- and they, uh, in many cases, feel like they have nowhere else to turn. And so the community that provided the initial acceptance for them, I think in most cases, turns their back on them once they, once they no longer identify as a trans person. So that, that's, I, I think-
Sean McDowell
Yeah.
Scott Rae
... that just, that just magnifies the tragedy of this, uh, and a- and I think, again, opens the door for the, the church to step into this.
Sean McDowell
I think that's right. I really consider this a watershed ruling. If the CDC or potentially, like, the DSM-5 would recognize this, or six, whatever comes after that, uh, that, that would be a watershed movement. And so I imagine there will be all forces at bay to resist and probably threaten and challenge and sue those who want to make this a diagnosable condition like this doctor does, because we realize what's downstream from it. You know, I don't wanna spend too much time on this, but it really raises biblical and, uh, worldview questions about what health is and what it means to be human. Are we body and soul? I- do our bodies, are they a part of our identities and who we are? Or does identity rest solely in our mind and our feelings? And so much this gender affirming care is driven by, you might say, adults affirmed feelings of kids, which in some way is insane for medicine, but also that my feelings define who I am.... and I can mold my body to adapt my feelings. It's a very Gnostic idea, where a Biblical idea is our bodies are a part of and inform who we are, and being healthy is, is, is in part recognizing who I am and living out who I am. So, I just wanna point out, beneath these legal cases that are taking place is just such worldview differences about how people see the world. It really is what you might call a spiritual worldview battle. Anything else on this one, Scott?
Scott Rae
Well, I think the, the definition of health, I think, has been broadened significantly and has become, uh, in that broadening from, you know, basically freedom from disease was the original definition of health to a more broad definition that encompasses all aspects of flourishing, some of which I think is helpful. But it does, I think, reflect a, more of a subjectivity in terms of determining what health is, as opposed to it being an entirely objective category.
Sean McDowell
Hm. That's well said. I also consider this a sign of pushing back, that we never would've seen this six months, two years ago, certainly five years ago. Like, there was a case in Vermont along this about a school, a Christian school, who refused to compete in a playoff game against a school that had a individual who identifies as transgender, and they were kicked out of the athletic league for a couple years and a ruling just said that they were not allowed to do this and they're allowed back in. So, we're seeing some pushback on this narrative, which I think is a positive thing, but we'll track this story moving forward. This next one, Scott, came across my desk and I have such different thoughts on this one. Some of the studies we read here, like literally it's not a surprise to say that they shock me. Like, I didn't see it coming. This one I read to my son last night and my wife and they both looked at me and they're like, "Well, of course that's obvious."
Scott Rae
(laughs)
Sean McDowell
So, in many ways, the mere fact that we have to do this study is revealing about a certain evolutionary secular mindset that we have that just brings us back to obvious, sane things that I think we as Christians have known all along. Well, this is a study and it says men and women with multiple sex partners are less desirable as long-term mates. And, uh, uh, uh, apparently this was done across... not apparently, it was done across over 5,300 people, five continents, Europe, North America, South America, Asia, and Australia, and i- there's a certain stereotype that in modern societies there's, or an assumption, that a double standard where men who sleep around are praised, maybe considered studs, women who sleep around are criticized, and I just won't use the term on the Think Biblically podcast where people can fill in the blank with their creativity. And so they're asking the question, is it true that men prefer their future wives to have had fewer sexual partners while women don't care how many previous sexual partners their future husbands have had? Now, honestly, we didn't have to do this study. You could've just asked one woman in your life or five women in your life and gotten an obvious answer, but we need to study these things apparently. And here's what the study shows. In line with previous research, uh, the new study found that in the number of previous sexual partners and that the larger that number, the less willing they were to consider that person as a good long-term mate. So, there's differences acro- there's some slight differences between, say, China and Australia and North America, but as a whole when people view those with sexual partners, the more partners they were told that person had, the less desirable they consider that person as a future mate. Now, the one thing they did say, uh, they said, the study found that participants were more willing to consider a person as a long-term mate if sh- sh- he or she had many sexual partners in the past, but the number had recently decreased sharply. So, it's not so much according to this study that people had many sexual partners in the past. The question really is, although that's relevant, the other factor is has the person stopped that behavior and showed some self-restraint? Then people were less likely to hold it against them that they had multiple sexual partners. Uh, a ton could be said about this, but tell me your takeaway when I sent you this article.
Scott Rae
Well, my first question is does, you know, when you have multiple sexual partners are they, you know, are they cheating on partners or is this sort of one partner at a time over a longer period-
Sean McDowell
Oh, okay.
Scott Rae
... of time?
Sean McDowell
Okay.
Scott Rae
The study, I don't think, points, points that out-
Sean McDowell
It didn't.
Scott Rae
... but if it's, if it's the former then I think there's, you know, there, there's a lot more that's evident of about someone's character than if it's the latter. Though I suspect that even if it's the lav- it's just one partner at a time, so yeah, if you've had multiple partners over a long period of time, it might say some of the sa- some of the same things. So, m- my, uh, my, my main takeaway from this is the last paragraph of the article, this comes from The Institute for Family Studies-
Sean McDowell
Hm.
Scott Rae
... that it tries to explain what is the connection between multiple sexual partners over a, a, a decent period of time and desirability as a mate? And I think, uh, I think they, they hit on it just right and I, I might expand on some of this a little bit, but I, ultimately I think sexual self-control reflects really important virtues of character-
Sean McDowell
Amen.
Scott Rae
... for someone. S- so things like prudence, self-control, faithfulness, delaying gratification for other goods, uh, putting someone else's needs before your own-... which I would say is one, one of the most important keys to a successful marriage. Not to mention successful parenting. Because with, I, with every successive child we had, my own needs slipped further down the priority list.
Sean McDowell
(laughs)
Scott Rae
And that's something, that's just the way it is.
Sean McDowell
Yeah.
Scott Rae
When you, you know, if you wanna have a, if you wanna have a happy family, uh, your needs can't, c- can't be at the top of the list.
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae
Um, and I think, you know, I think it's, it's also true that past behavior c- can be a guide to future behavior. Uh, in, in general, I think, you know, leopards don't change their spots overnight. Uh, though the article I think is right to point out that if, if sexual self-control is to have taken root in someone's life, and they've sort of outgrown a promiscuous past, matured out of that, then that, that might have something to say about their character as well. Uh, I think the other thing that it might indicate, having multiple sexual partners over time, is that, is it may be a statement, Sean, that sex is more important than the relationship.
Sean McDowell
Hmm.
Scott Rae
A- 'Cause I, I remember an, an elder McDowell saying-
Sean McDowell
(laughs)
Scott Rae
... on several occasions, that sexual problems are mostly relational ones.
Sean McDowell
That's right.
Scott Rae
They're not physical issues.
Sean McDowell
Hmm.
Scott Rae
And I think it's, it's the recognition, I think, that sex is not the main course in a marriage. You know, I, I like it, it's more like the dessert. Uh, and if it, if you treat it as the main course, then that has, that has the tendency to short-circuit the kind of, the relational depth that's necessary for good sex in the long term.
Sean McDowell
Hmm.
Scott Rae
So that, I think it, it does, I think it does suggest things about character, and about, uh, someone's trustworthiness. I think for a believer it also, I think, ref- is a reflection on your relationship to all three members of the triune God.
Sean McDowell
Hmm.
Scott Rae
Uh, because, you know, as Paul points out in several places, uh, sexual immorality violates our relationship with all three members of the Trinity. Sort of all, all at the same time.
Sean McDowell
That, that, that's a great takeaway. I, I had a couple thoughts on this one that I think line up with that. One is just pragmatically. I, uh, uh, on Instagram sometimes I respond to like these short reels and kind of do what we're doing here but in like 30 seconds, one minute, and my son found this very popular young Gen Z podcaster. He calls himself, maybe amongst other things, the Hat Guy. And a Christian was talking with him, and the Christian asked him, "Do you think I'm stupid?" He goes, "Oh, I don't think you're stupid. As a Christian, everybody needs some kind of guide." He goes, "But you're crazy, crazy, to not have sex before marriage." He goes, "You're nuts." Like he found that completely absurd and made no sense.
Scott Rae
(laughs)
Sean McDowell
And then part of my reaction, I said, "It's interesting, just from a pragmatic standpoint, studies show," and I, I mean I document this in my book, Chasing Love, that the more sexual partners somebody has before marriage, as a whole, of course there's exceptions, the less pleasure somebody describes having with sex when they're married. So it's the reverse effect. And again, of course there's exceptions to it. But the idea of like practice makes perfect might be true for investing and cooking and basketball.
Scott Rae
(laughs)
Sean McDowell
But it's actually not true when it comes to sex. This adds another wrinkle to it, another pragmatic reason not to be sexually active. Namely, if you ask in your life, "Gosh, I wanna find a partner I'm with for 30, 40, 50, 60 years," and most young people do, being sexually active, especially with many people, is actually going to have an adverse effect on how you are viewed by a potential spouse. So, purely, if somebody was just out for self-interest, I'd say you're crazy to be sexually active for a lot of different reasons. Now of course I'm not saying that's the main reason somebody shouldn't be sexually active. That's the mistakes of purity culture in the past. The reason we should not be sexually active is in First Peter, "Be holy because God is holy," out of obedience and love for God, and love for other people. But studies like this just remind me that God is the one who made our bodies, God is the one who made marriage, God is the one who made sex, and as my father said, to bring Elder McDowell into this again, God's commandments are for our good. That's what Deuteronomy 10 says. When Moses writes to the people he says, "Love God with your heart, your soul, and your mind, and be strong and follow his commands, which are given for our good." So studies like this just remind me, it's kind of written on our hearts, whether people realize it or not, that there is a design and a purpose for sex, and that sex means something between people. Right? Part of the sexual revolution was to demystify sex, and say it's just like having a glass of water with somebody. Well there's no study that's gonna say the amount of water you drink before marriage has any effect whatsoever-
Scott Rae
(laughs)
Sean McDowell
... on your desirability of the kind of spouse that you will be. But it does affect as it comes to sex, because sex means something as the scripture says. So studies like this, to me, are actually encouraging, but again, I just kind of laugh that we even need to do this study. It's so obvious, and just reminds me how deeply we've probably been affected by both an evolutionary and a secular mindset.
Scott Rae
Well, and let me highlight just one point of- of-
Sean McDowell
Yeah.
Scott Rae
... pragmatism on this. Um, I think, you know, marriage is not a sex on demand thing.
Sean McDowell
Hm.
Scott Rae
Uh, I mean, I think lo- lots and lots of people when they are first, uh, dating or considering marriage don't recognize that you may have times in your life when there may be long stretches where sex is not really in the picture, during pregnancy, you know, when you have young children, wh- when, you know, when, uh, their spouse is nursing, uh, po- post-menopause, during, you know, maybe times of illness. I mean, when, you know, my wife had a year where she had breast cancer and-
Sean McDowell
Hm.
Scott Rae
... uh, radical surgery and chemotherapy. Uh, it was, it was a, it was a tough year on everybody. Uh, and you know, her recovering from that was front of mind for everybody.
Sean McDowell
Sure.
Scott Rae
And so ev- everything else was on the back burner. Uh, and, you know, if you're, if you are accustomed to, uh, you know, you know, ch- changing sexual partners to- to meet your needs, that doesn't bode well when you may have some of these long stretches, which I think are, you know, um, most of them I think if, you know, if you're gonna have children, uh, th- those are to be expected. And if, you know, and every woman's going to go through menopause. You know, that's to be expected. Uh, so I think just to be... I think to be, to be careful that we see sex for what it is, a beautiful gift of God, but it's not... it's, it's not the main thing that holds a relationship together.
Sean McDowell
Amen to that. You know, I'd like to see a comparable study on this that's not just about sexual activity but pornography, because in the recent Beyond the Porn phenomenon, women tended to be significantly more bothered by a man's porn use than a man was by a woman's. Now there's reasons for that, and I forget the numbers, we could come back to it. Uh, but that- that's a piece of the pie we could swing back to that's, that would be interesting to explore as well. This next story, uh, you, you sent this one over. I can't... Maybe I sent it over. I think we both found it in The Atlantic. And we've talked about AI a number of times here, we'll continue to, but the fact that a high school student wrote this I think is most interesting. Now it did go through my mind, Scott. I thought, "I wonder if this student used AI to write this."
Scott Rae
(laughs)
Sean McDowell
But, you know, we'll never know for sure the answer about that one. But essentially-
Scott Rae
I, I, would... I would hope not.
Sean McDowell
I hope-
Scott Rae
Given his point.
Sean McDowell
... that based on the art... (laughs) Exactly. Yeah. Fair enough. Well, so the student's basically saying AI has transformed his experience of education. So think about it, if it, ChatGBT launches in 2022, we're hitting 2026 in the spring, we're having students who have basically had AI their entire time in college, or AI their entire time in high school. So he's saying it, it's transformed his experience of education. He's a senior at a public high school in New York and the AI tools are everywhere. So he gives some examples of how in a lesson on the narrative of the life of Frederick Douglass you're not gonna find a more significant, important voice to think about, to study, to wrestle with, for so many reasons. And how his classmates were just dropping in prompts in AI, pumping it out, and just turning in the assignment on something as significant as the life of Frederick Douglass. Uh, uh, he makes a few points. One is, he talks about how it affects the academic shared experience, which is something I had not thought about, Scott. He said many assignments are due at 11:59 PM, and I still have some assignments in my classes (laughs) that I will do 11:59 PM.
Scott Rae
(laughs)
Sean McDowell
And he says they used to share memes of like pounding away on the keyboard at 11:57, just turning in assignments together. But now with AI there's no sense of urgency here. So it actually takes away from kind of their collective experience. That was interesting. Second, he said it softens the consequences of procrastination. And so a lot of students can just avoid doing any work. Th- this steals intensity and students just don't have a sense of urgency to get certain things done. So number one, the community, number two, procrastination. Uh, and he also says preventative measures can only go so far. And that's very, very true. The last point he says is, he talks about how it creates an outsourcing of the way that we think. He says the trouble with chatbots is not just that they allow students to get away with cheating or remove a sense of urgency, they led students to focus on external results at the expense of internal growth. So basically, this is turning what we might consider, uh, the intrinsic value of education into a purely extrinsic value of accomplishing certain needs. Uh, and he gives an example that was really interesting about how a debate team at his school, during rounds people were using AI-
Scott Rae
(laughs)
Sean McDowell
... to construct their arguments, which is crazy. And so he bemoans this. He's deeply concerned about it. Coming from a high school I thought was unique, tell me your takeaway.
Scott Rae
Well, for one, my, my first immediate takeaway is that AI detection mechanisms will always be behind the latest AI technology.
Sean McDowell
That's right.
Scott Rae
And students will always find ways around the guardrails.
Sean McDowell
Hm.
Scott Rae
And Sean, I think I've, I've mentioned this before, but, uh, this is why I, I no longer require papers in my classes. It's, uh, oral exams and blue books for in-class exams. Now we'll see, the jury's still out on whether the grading for that's gonna kill me f- for time.
Sean McDowell
Oh, yeah.
Scott Rae
But I, I remember one of the most educational and one of the most terrifying moments I had as a doctoral student-... was an oral exam I had in a class on the history of ethics, because the prof was our f- our dear friend, the late Dallas Willard.
Sean McDowell
Oh, wow.
Scott Rae
Uh, uh, uh, having a, having a, uh, you know, having a, a 15 to 20 minute oral examination from him on the class material, uh, let's just say I w- that put the fear of God in me when I walked into that. And some, and I, Sean, I will say, some of the most memorable moments in my, my doctoral program was the oral defense of my comprehensive exams and dissertation.
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae
Uh, and I r- I remember those vividly because I was, I was subject to pretty searching examination, and they discovered pretty quickly if I knew the material or not. Um, and I think for us at Talbot, uh, at the grad level where we're equipping the next generation of pastors and church leaders, my sense is they will probably never write another paper again once they get outta school.
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae
But they will have lots of conversations o- over coffee with people in their, in their church and in their community responding to what may be really difficult scenarios.
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae
That's what I want to make sure that our grad students are equipped to do, uh, and I'm ho- I'm really hopeful that it, it wi- it, it will allow me, time will allow me to do this well. Uh, we'll see, you know, maybe with, uh, 10 or 15 students, that may be different than having 30 or 35.
Sean McDowell
Sure, yeah, yeah.
Scott Rae
So, we'll have to, we'll do, we'll have to see about that.
Sean McDowell
Hm.
Scott Rae
Uh, the other thing that struck me on this, and w- what we've reported on this before, what this is doing to things like critical thinking, following an argument, uh, supplementing an argument with good reasons, problem-solving. Uh, you know, these are the things that employers tell us that they are most looking for in potential employees, in addition to charac-
Sean McDowell
Ah.
Scott Rae
... in addition to character and integrity, which again, f- this, you know, f- this is, you know, as a faculty member of 51蹤獲, speaks to the importance, I think, of the liberal arts. And you made, you made a point of this initially in citing the article, that education is about more than career preparation, but b- bout, but about becoming a certain type of person. Right? Now, to be fair, I don't expect public education to form someone's character.
Sean McDowell
Sure, sure.
Scott Rae
Because I'm reminded of the, the late Chuck Colson's, you know, his, his, his, uh, piece that he entitled Why Harvard Can't Teach Ethics ...
Sean McDowell
Yeah, I remember that.
Scott Rae
... uh, I think was, which he, which he replicated all throughout the Ivy League.
Sean McDowell
Yep.
Scott Rae
Uh, because they, they don't, they don't have the foundation necessary that Christian institutions do.
Sean McDowell
Hm.
Scott Rae
So, uh, you know, that, I, I think the, the point of this is that, you know, what, what kind of per- what kind of people is AI shaping us into becoming? Because as we've s-
Sean McDowell
Hm.
Scott Rae
You know, technology's not neutral. Technology, we, we use technology, but technology shapes us too, and I think we're seeing, you know, four years in, wha- what AI is doing to us, at least in the realm of education, is not very encouraging.
Sean McDowell
Hm.
Scott Rae
Uh, and so I think th- this is really revealing for a high school student to say that AI is ruining my education. It's not just transforming it. You know, he said it's a- it's actually wiping it out and replacing something, uh, replacing, uh, you know, just checking boxes, uh, with, for real learning.
Sean McDowell
Hm. That's a great takeaway. I, I completely agree with all of the points that you made there. I, th- what you just said, I wrote at the top of my notes, that technology is not neutral. Now, there's a difference between moral neutrality. I think some technology might be, but a torture chamber certainly isn't morally neutral.
Scott Rae
(laughs)
Sean McDowell
We're talking about worldview, it's not neutral. It affects the user. Like, having watches, that shaped the way we look at the world through the lens of time, now hours and minutes, and now seconds and hundredths of seconds. That technology affected us. Planes, being able to travel around the world, shaped our perspective of the world. So, technology is not something j- we use to interact with the world. It shapes and affects and influences us. And we have to be aware with AI how much it's influencing us. So, I took the three points that this high school student was concerned about and thought, "Well, how do we think biblically about this?" And the first one was shared experience. Now, of course, a shared experience at 11:57 PM stressing over procrastination, I don't wanna read too much into that. But it's worth asking, does AI affect our relationships? And of course, with chatbots, it does as well. And the Bible is full of the importance of relationships. Ecclesiastes 4:9 highlights the benefits of companionship. Proverbs 27:17 points to the sharpening and growth that comes from good relationships. So, we cannot see AI as a tool for which our relationships will suffer in any fashion, then it's affecting us biblically. The second one was, he says, "AI has softened the consequences of procrastination." Well, the Bible has a lot to say about sloth-
Scott Rae
Yes, it does.
Sean McDowell
... in the Old Testament and the New Testament. Of course, Ecclesiastes and Proverbs, and be like the ant. Romans 12:11 says, "Do not be slothful in zeal, be fervent in spirit. Serve the Lord." And then his third concern was on outsourcing the way we think.And of course, thinking in the Bible, you know, we've made to love God with our minds. We're supposed to recognize poor thinking in a particular bad doctrine. And thinking is not just something for an end result. There's value in the process itself. When the internet came around, all of a sudden, we stopped debating certain things, like who's the leading NBA scorer of all time? Someone goes and says, "Karl Malone." Someone goes, "No, it's Kareem Abdul-Jabbar." And you debate about it, and you talk about it. And actually, we now know it's LeBron James. But what would happen is people would just search, find a quick answer, and the discussion's done. And I'm like, it feels like we've lost something in just discussing and reasoning and debating and dialoguing relationally and learning to think. AI is like that on steroids. So my point is not that AI is bad. It's an incredible tool, but we've got to be so cognizant of how it affects our relationships and our thinking and our moral state. So this article is saying that this affects our minds, it affects our relationships, and in some ways, affects our moral character. If this high school student is right about that, we better be very, very aware of how AI affects us and affects others as Christians and have discernment. That's my basic takeaway.
Scott Rae
Yeah. No, that's a gr- that's a great take on that, Sean. And I- I've wondered, you know, i- is, you know, what is the place of AI in education? Is there a place for it?
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae
Uh, and I can see there's- there- there probably are some uses where I think it's okay and not destructive, but there- I think what we have to be careful of is the temptation will be to use it to replace education, as opposed to supplementing it. And that temptation, I would suggest, is already proving to be irresistibly. The problem is when AI is all that we know how to use, and we have, you know, we have some college grads who are s- recent college grads who are s- who are suggesting that they have been overly dependent on AI. And the article points out... I love the way they put this, "It's dulling grit (laughs) and critical thinking and the ability to perform under stress," all of which are really important, uh, capacities that somebody's gonna have to have to hold down a job for a long term in this incredibly challenging and changing job market. Uh-
Sean McDowell
May- maybe here's the root of AI. It's because it's artificial intelligence and functions like human intelligence that the key temptation or threat is for it to replace things that we as humans do, whether it's moral character, whether it's education, whether it's relationships, and as a result, it dehumanizes us. I think that's the root of the lens through which Christians should look at this. How do we use it as a tool, supplement what humans do? But when it starts replacing, that's where we say time out because of what it means to be human and what we're made for.
Scott Rae
That- that's a great insight.
Sean McDowell
(laughs)
Scott Rae
That- that's well- well said.
Sean McDowell
Uh, we've got some questions here, Scott, as usual. But first, really quickly, just wanna remind people that this podcast is brought to you from Talbot School of Theology. And we have programs, Scott, in ethics, Old Testament, New Testament, a range of different master's degrees, online and in person. And Ed Stetzer, our dean, shared with us just this week in our staff meeting that numbers are up at Talbot. We would love for you to start as a part-time or full-time student and get theological training so you can think biblically in your life and family and community and in your church. Uh, let's go to questions. Uh, this says, "How should I think about minority groups as a Christian? I refer to minority groups. I agree and disagree with it doesn't matter whether they are Christian or non-Christian. I've been reflecting on this for a while. We argue when Christians are rejected or persecuted for simply being Christian, but the church has a past filled with rejection and persecution of other minority groups. So this touches all areas of life, sexuality, business, politics, media. Is there a framework I can use to navigate treating minorities in a certain fashion? Given that Christianity has been a minority, is a minority in some countries, how do we navigate this?"
Scott Rae
Sean, I think there's just- there's one primary thing that oughta govern our response to this and set the framework, and that is that, uh, everyone is a person of intrinsic essential dignity by virtue of being made in the image of God. Whether you agree with them or not, uh, whether they're, you know, whether they're persecuting you or not, uh, e- everyone you come into contact with deserves respect and deserves recognition of their intrinsic dignity by virtue of being made in the image of God. Uh, that may sound really obvious, but I think that's-
Sean McDowell
Sure.
Scott Rae
... at- at its core, I think that- I think that's the answer to this.
Sean McDowell
Hmm. One thing that I would say is, uh, I think w- we have built legally and, of course, biblically when Jesus talks about caring for the one versus the 99, that because all human beings are made in the image of God, we are to care for individuals. That is a Christian ethic. But I do think we can challenge certain categories of minorities as the way they are framed in our culture today and even in our government. Like certain... The idea of a sexual minority is rooted in a certain Freudian ethic that my sexual attractions define who I am.Now, we don't have time to go into depth here, but I don't think Christians just have to lock, stock, and barrel fall in line with the way our culture frames what it means to be a minority, especially when it rubs up against a Christian understanding, and arguably what's best for the state, not just known through scripture, but known through natural law. That goes beyond here. So I would agree with you, love our neighbors, made in the image of God, but we can challenge certain group identities, the way they're framed when they come up against, I would argue, the objective good of society. Things like same-sex marriage, I would argue, Bible aside, is not objectively good for society. Uh, so here's a question that says this individual's in a pretty conservative church, but a denomination growing more and more progressive, and it's really a struggle over, how do I keep unity when there's so many things to divide over? Uh, what's your thoughts? At the end it says, "We need to stop grieving and quenching the spirit, be obedient to the word, and this is how we will keep the unity of the spirit that exists within the body." But we're just tripped up over differences that so many people have. How important is unity and how do we keep it today?
Scott Rae
Well, it depends on wha- what the issues are, for one. I'd say y- you probably can't keep unity if the issues are about things that, that sort of define the essence of the faith.
Sean McDowell
Hmm.
Scott Rae
So, uh, we can't, we can't have differences about the deity of Christ, the bodily resurrection, those things that define what it means to be a Christian, and I think other areas where the scripture outlines them as really essential things, and I would say the definition of marriage would be one of those essential things that Paul describes in Ephesians 5 as having a deeper truth that illustrates the relationship between Christ and the Church. That, uh, that v- in my view makes that central and not peripheral.
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae
Uh, but the other part of this, Sean, I think is how we go about, uh, settling our differences, how we go about discussing our differences. I think we're called to do this with, with respect and with charity and with winsomeness, uh, doing, doing everything we can to maintain the unity of the spirit, uh, you know, while at the same time acknowledging that there are differences. You know, Paul wro- that, you know, Paul wrote, you know, there's one body, uh, and that mandate to keep the unity of the spirit comes from Ephesians, where they were having the mother of all racial conflicts between Jews and Gentiles.
Sean McDowell
That's right.
Scott Rae
So, uh, I think, eh, you know, that, that was, uh, that was a matter of including people within the body of Christ who deserved to be included, uh, and I think the, again, I think the framework is that we, eh, you know, we, we're clear about, we're clear about what divides us. We do this with charity and with winsomeness, um, and we have, we have winsome convictions, as our, our 51蹤獲 team suggests, but we're, we're just as strong on the conviction part as we are on the winsomeness, especially if they are, eh, areas that are essential to the faith that divide us.
Sean McDowell
I love that. The only other thing that, that comes to my mind is that I don't think we should ever compromise truth at the expense of unity. We cannot compromise truth. Now, of course this raises questions, what is true? How do we know what is true? Aside from that, uh, Bible talks a lot about the value and importance of unity in Ephesians, be charitable. I think a lot of division comes from different expectations, failure to communicate, our own brokenness. But with that said, we need to die on the right hills. This last question, Scott, I just, eh, eh, it basically somebody who's talking about, "How do I help a church, uh, who I left one that preaches expositionally. I'm at a church that doesn't really emphasize expositional preaching. Should I kind of leave that church or sta- stay in a community that doesn't preach expositionally or go to one that does?" My quick thoughts are, is try to be a help to your church and see if you can come alongside the pastor, recognize something, and offer a class and find those who want expositional preaching beyond the sermons, not in a way that's snarky, not in a way that's angry, but in a way that just says, "I'm gonna try to serve the church here." Do that first, so kind of exhaust efforts at that church, and if you find out the church doesn't value the Bible, nobody's along with me for the ride, then maybe it's time to go to another church. But don't go to a pastor and start complaining about this. It's not gonna be received well, and probably not gonna change. Just say, "If I'm in the position of this pastor, and somebody approached me who wants more expositional teaching, how would I be most likely to respond?" And I think if we have a plan, we have a way that helps, it's reasonable, and we're willing to do it, uh, at least try that first would be my take. Anything you'd add to that?
Scott Rae
I'd say in, in the meantime, we, uh, there are lots of resources available for good expositional Bible teaching that, that are, that, that are not in your church. Uh, there's a-
Sean McDowell
Hmm.
Scott Rae
... ton of, ton of good resources out there. You can find good Bible exposition in a lot of different places, while at the same time, you're doing, Sean, I think what you suggest.
Sean McDowell
In fact, come get a degree in Bible exposition at Talbot School of Theology at 51蹤獲.
Scott Rae
Amen.
Sean McDowell
Then you go back not only with the training, but with a certain degree of credibility-
Scott Rae
(laughs)
Sean McDowell
... and hopefully can just serve your church. That was maybe the best segue ever to wrap up a conversation, Scott.
Scott Rae
There you go.
Sean McDowell
You threw me a softball.
Scott Rae
(laughs)
Sean McDowell
And so I'm gonna land this plane by just reminding folks that this has been an episode of the Think Biblically podcast.
Scott Rae
(instrumental music)
Sean McDowell
Conversations on faith and culture. Brought to you by Talbot School of Theology. As I said earlier, we have master's programs online, offline, full-time, part-time. The growth is so encouraging this year. Please keep your comments and questions coming. You can email us at thinkbiblicaly@biola.edu. And if you wanna take a moment to just give us a rating on your podcast app, seriously, every single rating helps. So if you value Thinking Biblically and want others to do so, giving us a rating helps move the ball forward. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll see you Tuesday in a conversation with Anthony Bradley about the importance of fathers today. In the meantime, remember to think biblically about everything.
