51蹤獲
Whether in the occult, astrology, or New Age, interest in the supernatural has increased in the past few years. What can we learn about the spiritual realm, and spiritual warfare, from the letters of Paul? Talbot professor Clint Arnold is one of the leading New Testament scholars in the world. He joins the Think Biblically podcast to talk about his book and to answer some of the most common questions about demons and the supernatural realm.
Dr. Clint Arnold is a professor of New Testament at Talbot School of Theology, 51蹤獲. He has authored many books and commentaries including Ephesians in the Zondervan Exegetical Series and Colossians in the Word Biblical Commentary.
Episode Transcript
Sean McDowell
What do we learn about spiritual warfare from the writings of the Apostle Paul? How can his writings help us to think about issues pressing today like the occult, demons, magic, and other New Age practices that are infiltrating the wider culture and arguably even the Church? Our guest today is leading scholar, Dr. Clint Arnold, who's written a fascinating book called The Powers of Darkness. As we were chatting before, I've done a number of interviews, more so on YouTube, about the occult, New Age practices, and your name comes up often as, like, the expert on this. And I've always thought, "Why don't we interview one of our colleagues on this?"
Clint Arnold
(laughs)
Sean McDowell
So, you written a book... You, you wrote the book on it. Thanks for coming on to talk about this.
Clint Arnold
Hey, great. Thanks, Sean. Yeah.
Sean McDowell
Well, let's jump in. I'm really curious in the backstory why a leading New Testament scholar would be motivated to study issues related to the occult, spiritual warfare, but distinctly through the lens of the Apostle Paul.
Clint Arnold
Yeah, great question, and I've been asked that so many times.
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Clint Arnold
How did you get into this?
Sean McDowell
(laughs)
Clint Arnold
Uh, 'cause I grew up on a farm in the Central Valley of California (laughs) . And so, I think behind that question, sometimes people think, you know, "Was your mother a witch?"
Sean McDowell
(laughs)
Clint Arnold
Or that you had some weird-
Sean McDowell
That's fair.
Clint Arnold
... thing in the background. But actually, it was nothing quite like that.
Sean McDowell
Hmm.
Clint Arnold
I... It, it is a bit of a story 'cause I went to, uh, University of Aberdeen for my PhD work, that's in the northeast of Scotland. And I was praying for a topic that would be encouraging to my soul.
Sean McDowell
Wow.
Clint Arnold
And, uh, you wonder how do you get to the demonic, uh, if you're praying for something like that? And so my, my desire was to find a biblical theological topic-
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Clint Arnold
... related to the power of God and the life of the believer. In other words, how do you experience the life-changing power of God in one's life to live a life pleasing to the Lord? And so my supervisor, Howard Marshall, thought, "Hey, that's a great idea. There's probably something academically justifiable there, uh, go for it." And so I focused on Paul's letters, looking at the theme of power in the letters. And I realized if you did just purely a statistical study, uh, there's more power denoting terminology-
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Clint Arnold
... in Ephesians and Colossians than in anywhere else.
Sean McDowell
Okay.
Clint Arnold
So my supervisor said, "Hey, just focus on that and rigorously put the question, 'Why?'" And so I did. And it doesn't take very long looking at Ephesians and Colossians to realize that there's a lot in those two letters about principalities, powers, authorities, uh, dominions, and all of these names. Uh, Ephesians is where you get the long passage on spiritual warfare. And so that put me into this, uh, this realm of just asking, um, why the emphasis on the power of God, and it's in... to counter the powers of evil.
Sean McDowell
Uh, I, I love that approach. If I may just follow up, I'm really curious. I was interviewing Richard Gallagher, who's one of the leading exorcists with the Catholic Church. Actually, he's not an exorcist.
Clint Arnold
Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell
He's a medical doctor, and he's called in when they do exorcists to make sure there's not some medical condition first. Written a whole book on spiritual forces. And before we're starting the interview, we're having all these kind of tech issues that are unusual, and he just made a comment. He goes, "Well, you know, there's powers that don't want us to even have this conversation."
Clint Arnold
Oh, interesting.
Sean McDowell
And I thought, "How interesting." So given that you've written on this and spoken on this, do you have certain encounters or experiences like that that you would describe as, "Wow, I've chosen to speak on this, so I felt the powers from the other side"? Or do you just feel a protection from Jesus and not that kind of attack? (laughs)
Clint Arnold
(laughs) Yeah. Typically, no, I don't-
Sean McDowell
Okay.
Clint Arnold
... experience that sort of thing, but I have.
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Clint Arnold
Um, and, uh, to further the story for a bit of how I got into this, um, one of the things that this topic led me to was an understanding of what was going on in the first century with, uh, the occult and magic and this sort of thing. And in terms of the experiential side of this, it was, uh, an experience that the Lord took us through in our church in Scotland with someone that was experiencing some very severe demonic affliction. And it was, uh, a brother from Kenya-
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Clint Arnold
... that kind of helped lead us through how to respond to this in a, in a spiritual way. And so part of my education was not only looking at what the Bible says, but learning from people who've had experience with this, who grew up in an animistic culture. This brother from Kenya, actually his, uh, mother was a witch doctor in the village.
Sean McDowell
Oh, wow.
Clint Arnold
Uh, and when he became a believer, his, uh, mother tried to kill him and chased him out of the house, and he had to flee the house for his life. Uh, in God's incredible, merciful sovereignty-
Sean McDowell
Hmm.
Clint Arnold
... she became a follower of Christ.
Sean McDowell
Wow. Wow.
Clint Arnold
His entire family became a follower of Christ. And, uh, but he became a great dialogue partner in this. And-
Sean McDowell
Yeah.
Clint Arnold
... in thinking through how to respond to different kinds of ministry cases. Now, Clint, I, I get it. You know, for people who have had that kind of experience or s- or something more personal has happened to themselves, why that would generate an interest in the subject. But what do you say... Why is this subject important for people who have never had anything like that and are sort of, you know, "I don't wa- I don't wanna go down this road." You know, uh, you know, "Let's, let's just keep this walled off from my own experience as much as we can." Yeah. Well, let me just first say that I think there's a lot more people that have had experiences than we may even realize. Hmm. Um, when, uh...Whenever I've taught a course here, uh, related to this topic, I would say every single time, over a third of the students who've experienced some kind of direct, uh, attack, especially through-
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Clint Arnold
... night terrors and things of that nature, they just don't talk about it. Uh, it's too embarrassing. It... You know, in a place where we've grown up with a naturalistic worldview to talk about this, uh, sometimes people think you're nuts. Um, so there is a lot of... There are a lot of people out there that have experienced various sorts of things. But, um, one of the things that I've learned through the in-depth biblical study in this topic is that we can't underestimate the wide variety of the ways that Satan works. Uh, it's not just through something that's overt and, and dramatic. It's often through, uh, his fingerprints being on the creation of ideologies and, uh, various kinds-
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Clint Arnold
... of, uh, teachings that emerge that lead people astray. In fact, that, for the church fathers, became a very significant part of understanding the way the demonic works, is through inspiring false teaching, through, uh, inspiring ideologies that lead people astray. And that's certainly part of what the biblical teaching is about on this.
Sean McDowell
That's such a good answer because in John 8, Jesus described Satan as a murderer and a liar by his very nature. And some of the most powerful persuasion... One of my favorite classes I took here at 51蹤獲 as an undergrad was on persuasion. Talked about how the power of just subtle persuasion, when you don't know you're being persuaded, these little, just tiny twists of the truth is demonic warfare in the realm of truth. So, we've all been affected by this, is your argument. Now, what I think is interesting, in your book, you wrote in 1992, and in some ways it's timeless, 'cause you're looking at a biblical theology of, you know, Ephesians and Colossians, what it says about the supernatural realm. So, it's clearly timeless. But you talk about kind of things shifting in the '60s, which was 30 years ago, and an openness to New Age, occult practices. I'm looking back going, "Well, the '90s are now about 30 (laughs) years ago." How would you assess, is there more interest in the culture, in the church? Is this phenomena more prevalent today than you think it was 30 years ago? What would be your sense of that? In at least the American church and beyond?
Clint Arnold
I think there's an ongoing interest, uh, and concern about these matters. Um, about the time I was writing this, however, there was, uh, a situation emerging, uh, that later came to be termed the Satanic Panic. Um-
Sean McDowell
Yeah, that's right.
Clint Arnold
... and in fact there's a very popular podcast that's-
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Clint Arnold
... about that right now.
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Clint Arnold
Uh, and, uh, we were in the midst of trying to figure out what end is up on this stuff, you know, what's real, what's not, and, and all. And, and certainly that hi- is afire that has kind of diminished. Uh, but the supernatural continues to be something that is in the forefront of a lot of, uh, people's consciousness and awareness. But once again, I think, uh, when we talk about this broader topic of spiritual warfare, I think we have to recognize that once again there's a wide variety of ways that Satan works. And I think one of the things that I just have seen, especially in the post-COVID era, is the rise of ideologies and ideas and pressures, uh, in the church where the fingerprints of Satan are on this. And it's, it's ripping the church apart. It's, it's, uh, creating extraordinary division. And what we can't underestimate is the role that the evil one plays in something like this. It's not just ideological. There are spiritual dynamics at work that we need to understand and, and, and see-
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Clint Arnold
... behind this kind of thing.
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
[speaker_2]
Yeah, Clint, those s- those, those subtleties that you, that you suggest sort of remind me of The Screwtape Letters, uh, and how the elder tempter is counseling and coaching the younger one on how to lead the body of Christ astray. But for, for, for things that we might say are m- less subtle or, and more... m- might, we might say more direct attacks on someone, perhaps like, like this person you described earlier-
Clint Arnold
Mm-hmm.
[speaker_2]
... how would you distinguish between something that is demonic and spiritual warfare as opposed to something that might be just merely psychological?
Clint Arnold
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's a, that's a fantastic question, and it's a really tough one to answer. Um, I, uh, for 20-plus years, I taught a class here at 51蹤獲 for grad students that had three professors in it. Uh, former president of 51蹤獲, Clyde Cook, used to say, "That's my most expensive course on campus." (laughs)
[speaker_2]
(laughs) By far.
Clint Arnold
Three, three professors in there at the same time, but we had a, a psychologist who was the director-
[speaker_2]
Mm-hmm.
Clint Arnold
... of the 51蹤獲 Counseling Center, and we had a missionary, anthropologist. The missionary had spent, uh, his missionary career in Irian Jaya among a animistic people, uh, the Dani tribe. Uh, we gathered for lunch, uh, every week, and most of it was discussing that very issue, a particular case that the psychologist may be dealing with, and, "I- Is this demonic? Is it psychological? Is it some mix of both?" And I think it's the latter is probably the correct side.
[speaker_2]
Yeah.
Clint Arnold
I think we're very complex beings, we're integrated beings, and, and Satan exploits...... the psychological. He, uh, uses various means to hold people in his clutches and in bondage. So, we may need to address the psychological side of things, but simultaneously, we cannot neglect that there may be a spiritual, and probably is a-
Sean McDowell
Hmm.
Clint Arnold
... spiritual component that needs to be addressed as well. Um, in fact, in the ancient world, uh, there was no separation between medicine and spirituality. And I went to a conference at Harvard University a number of years ago, um, that was on this very topic, uh, science and spirituality or medicine and spirituality, and then ad- there was an advocacy of reintegrating, uh, the two.
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Clint Arnold
Um, of course, the underlying objective was, uh, HMOs could save a lot of money-
Sean McDowell
(laughs)
Clint Arnold
... if you treated the, if you treated the spiritual as well, but-
Sean McDowell
Like holistically or something.
Clint Arnold
... but in that kind of context, however, it was doesn't matter what spirituality, it's just it's-
Sean McDowell
Ah.
Clint Arnold
... we're spiritual beings and we need to address the spiritual component, you know?
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm. That's, that's real interesting. Now, one of the first chapters in your book that I thought was, uh, especially helpful is like, what were the common beliefs about supernatural and magic in the first century in which Jesus and Paul are walking physically and living, and the New Testament is being written? Now, I know a lot of writings are written by elites, so it's hard to know what is elite and what is the common folk, but what were some of the common practices? Like you said, they didn't distinguish between kind of medicine and the supernatural realm. What did that look like for the common person that day when Paul is writing Ephesians and Colossians?
Clint Arnold
Yeah, I appreciate your emphasis on the common people, the masses in antiquity.
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Clint Arnold
What did they believe? And there was no one that doubted the reality of this in, at that time, whether you were Jew or whether you were Greek. I mean, the Jews certainly believed in all of this, uh, and, and, and the Greeks did as well. The question was, what do you do to deal with it?
Sean McDowell
Okay, so hang on. So when you say this, you mean that there's spiritual, supernatural realms that we're tapping into through astrology or magic? They don't come from the Christian God, but there's this supernatural realm-
Clint Arnold
Yes.
Sean McDowell
... we are interacting with daily.
Clint Arnold
Yeah.
Sean McDowell
That's what you mean by this.
Clint Arnold
E- e- exactly right on that-
Sean McDowell
Okay.
Clint Arnold
... that is a, a world view, a set of beliefs that the spiritual realm is real and active. We are vulnerable. Um, so what do I do to protect myself? What do I do if my daughter, uh, has 104-degree fever and languishing in, in bed and I'm worried something worse is gonna happen? Uh, the question is, what do you do? Who do you consult?
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Clint Arnold
How do you handle it? Uh, and this spiritual side was always front and center in something of that nature. And in most of these kinds of instances, there would be somebody with wisdom and knowledge in the community that would, you would call upon for help in, in, in something of that nature. Uh, modern anthropologists would call that a shaman figure.
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Clint Arnold
Um-
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Clint Arnold
... in some tribal context, you call it the medicine man or something of this nature, but you, you find somebody that knows how to deal with the spiritual realm, um, and then figure out what formulas, incantations, rituals need to be performed to alleviate that problem.
Sean McDowell
Wow.
[speaker_2]
Now, Clint, um, let's just go back to, more to the beginning in the scriptures where... In the Old Testament-
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
[speaker_2]
... you, you don't typically, I think, develop a doctrine of demons and the occult and magic from the Old Testament text because there's just, uh, it doesn't seem to be a lot there to, to work with. And Paul, certainly as a Jew, would have been steeped in the Old Testament.
Clint Arnold
Mm-hmm.
[speaker_2]
So a- a- and he had a lot to say about pagan religions, but h- how, where, w- w- how does the Old Testament contribute to our understanding of the, just this r- this realm of the demonic and principalities and powers that the New, that the New Testament speaks so clearly about?
Clint Arnold
Right. There's maybe more in the Old Testament than we realize. Uh, when we go to a passage like Deuteronomy 32, uh, and it's basically saying that the, uh, sacrifices that pagans make, uh, to idols are essentially they're making them to the demonic. And you find this repeated, uh, later in the Old Testament, like Psalm 106. It talks about-
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Clint Arnold
... uh, offerings that are made to the Canaanite deities-
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Clint Arnold
... or essentially made to the demonic, uh, so that it becomes fundamental to a Jewish worldview-
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Clint Arnold
... Old Testament Jewish worldview that behind idolatry lurks the demonic, uh, that the demonic animates and inspires, uh, idolatry. And we know from, uh, the Ten Commandments, we know from reading all the way through the N- Old Testament that idolatry is something that the Lord hates. Uh, Paul picks this up in 1 Corinthians 10 when he talks about, um, that the, uh, offerings that pagans make to idols-
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Clint Arnold
... he's, they're actually making to demons. Uh, Paul had trained to be a rabbi. This was definitely part of what r- rabbinic conviction was, that behind all of this, uh, idolatry, uh, is the demonic. And that carried into the church fathers as well, uh, where there was strong conviction that it was animated by the demonic.
Sean McDowell
So Paul is a Pharisee, shaped by the Old Testament. You're talking about Deuteronomy 32, and there's even some passages like where an evil spirit being sent to torment Saul that we could unpack, and in First Samuel, I think, 32, there's kind of the medium. Like, there's these-
Clint Arnold
Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell
... hints of things in the Old Testament. So his Jewish background shaped him, but arguably, and I think somewhat obviously, the most profound influence on Paul would have been the teachings of Jesus, even if he didn't hear them directly from the other apostles and through some other kind of revelation. What are some of the unique teachings of Jesus about the supernatural realm that would have shaped Paul's writings as he approaches this?
Clint Arnold
Yeah. As we look at the Gospels, particularly the Synoptic Gospels, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, uh, the demonic is very pervasive in there.
Sean McDowell
It is. Yeah.
Clint Arnold
Um, and it's tied very closely with the Kingdom of God in the sense that, uh, the Kingdom of God stands opposed to the realm of the demonic and what Satan is attempting to do. So when Jesus begins his public ministry and he begins preaching in the synagogue at Capernaum, immediately as he's reading the Scripture, a man comes into full demonic manifestation and Jesus has to deal with him at that point. Uh, but preceding that-
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Clint Arnold
... was the proclamation of, uh, that the Kingdom of God is now upon you. Uh, it's, "The time has been fulfilled. The Kingdom of God is at hand." But one of the key teachings that I think influenced the Apostle Paul is what Jesus taught when he said that, um, "If I cast out demons by the Spirit of God-"
Sean McDowell
Mm.
Clint Arnold
"... the Kingdom of God has come upon you." Uh, in other words, with the coming of Jesus, uh, is the coming of the Kingdom in a spiritual sense, and that manifestation of the Kingdom would be demonstrated through, uh, these encounters with the demonic and a demonstration of God's power in overwhelming and overcoming the demonic. And that would be a sign that the Kingdom of God was here. And so when we pick up Paul, uh, we find him speaking about the Kingdom of God, not as much as the synoptics do-
Sean McDowell
Sure.
Clint Arnold
... but he speaks of that. And he defines conversion, even, as a transfer from the dominion of darkness into the Kingdom of the Son that he loves. Um, so use of the Kingdom language and an understanding of what God is doing in the present time, uh, through the Church.
Sean McDowell
Can you describe that in Acts, how there's these power encounters between Paul and between these supernatural beings, and it's kind of showing that these powers are real and present, but the greater power from Jesus through Paul is in his defeat of these enemies? That's a really creative way to put it. Now, a couple things on what you said before, just for, for clarity. You said when it comes to assessing whether somebody is maybe possessed or they have a psychological condition, it reminds me of intelligent design, where intelligent design is trying to determine, in the natural world, if an intelligent agent is active. And Dembski's filter would rule out, first, natural causes-
Clint Arnold
Mm.
Sean McDowell
... and then say, if there's some phenomena that can't be explained naturally and there's a positive sign of some intelligent phenomena-
Clint Arnold
Mm.
Sean McDowell
... like a language that you couldn't know or supernatural strength or even just a morbid desire, like, "I'm hearing voices telling me to kill myself," which matches up with a demon-
Clint Arnold
Mm.
Sean McDowell
... is kind of that sign. So it feels like th- there's overlap. Would you agree with that assessment?
Clint Arnold
I think that's, that's very helpful, but I think it can even get muddier than that at times.
Sean McDowell
Okay, tell me. Yeah.
Clint Arnold
In, in terms of, uh, when we're dealing with a person and they're... I, I remember one of our spiritual formation professors, Betsy Barber, used to say, uh, "There may be a spiritual component to a problem when you're stuck and you just-"
Sean McDowell
Hm.
Clint Arnold
"... can't seem to make progress in your Christian walk."
Sean McDowell
Hm.
Clint Arnold
"There may be a spiritual dynamic that needs to be dealt with at that point in time." Um, and, and that was a criterion that she used in, in, in ministering to people as well. So, uh, it can get very murky and very difficult to know how to separate these things. The solution, however, I believe, uh, may be the same. In terms of a spiritual intervention, uh, praying with people is calling upon God, the God who is a divine warrior, all-powerful-
Sean McDowell
Mm.
Clint Arnold
... to come in and intervene into a situation and bring healing and deliverance. Um, and maybe we don't need to know all the time if we can separate-
Sean McDowell
Hm.
Clint Arnold
... this from that and, uh, but we address them both simultaneously. So I know in the years that I've taught spiritual warfare, what we had advocated was a holistic approach. If somebody came in with a-
Sean McDowell
Hm.
Clint Arnold
... a set of, um, significant set of issues that they haven't been able to treat, uh, adequately to bring health, uh, to address the medical, to address the psychological, and to address the spiritual. And I think with us, having grown up in a naturalistic environment-
Sean McDowell
Yeah.
Clint Arnold
... it's the spiritual element that gets neglected.
Sean McDowell
Hm.
Clint Arnold
Uh, it's, I mean, I still struggle with that. Even though I wrote this book over 30 years ago, my knee-jerk reaction is strictly to think in the non-spiritual-
Sean McDowell
Mm.
Clint Arnold
... in the physical and, uh, psychological. Uh, and it, it takes an intentional effort to recognize, "Maybe I need to pray about this." (laughs)
Sean McDowell
Hm.
Clint Arnold
"Maybe I need to call on God to bring healing in this situation." Yeah. Well, I think there, I mean, there's a danger of over-spiritualizing things, particularly, particularly in struggles. But one of the things you mentioned that-
[speaker_2]
We, Paul describes conversion as, as believers being rescued from the dominion of darkness. But yet, at the same time, Satan is also described as the ruler of this age. And so how do, how do you fit, fit those pieces together for the, for the life of the believer, particularly as it concerns the vulnerability of the believer to demonic activity?
Clint Arnold
Yeah. Yeah. Satan is still alive and active and up to all kinds of mischief. And I think the thing that we need to keep in mind in terms of what spiritual warfare is all about is, the primary thing that Satan is concerned about is to stop the redemptive work of God in and through the church and in the lives of people. Uh, so, um, until Jesus returns, we will be in constant battle, um, until He returns. Um, Satan continues to be the ruler of this world, although he has been defeated, and that's a hard one to sort out sometimes. In what sense has he been defeated?
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Clint Arnold
Um, and I think the, the key thing that we learn, especially from Colossians 2:15, is that something happened on the cross that marked a decisive defeat of Satan, and it has implications for us today. Um, and yet, uh, that's not going to be fully manifested until Jesus returns and sets things completely right.
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
[speaker_2]
One-
Sean McDowell
Yeah, go ahead.
Clint Arnold
... quick follow-up. I think, I suspect at this point some of our listeners may be wondering about a, uh, a, a question that might seem pretty obvious, but in, in light of what you've just said, how would you answer the person who says, "You know, I'm, I'm concerned about believers being demon-possessed." Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[speaker_2]
"Is, is that possible in a world in which we've been delivered from the dominion of darkness?"
Clint Arnold
Yeah. I think that is the question that freaks most people out.
Sean McDowell
(laughs)
Clint Arnold
Um, and-
[speaker_2]
I admit, it sort of freaks me out too.
Sean McDowell
I know. (laughs)
Clint Arnold
So, and I, and I think that's a question that's easily answerable, but it, it, it requires a little bit of thinking on this part. Um, the word possessed-
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Clint Arnold
... never appears in the Gospels. Uh, so that's one important thing. And what I mean by that is, yeah, you look up in your English Bible and you see the word demon possession, it's there, but if you look behind it in the Greek text, it's just one word. It's the word demon with an ending on it, 妏izomai, that means, uh, somehow this person has been afflicted.
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
[speaker_2]
Mm-hmm.
Clint Arnold
Uh, tormented, terrorized, oppressed, something by a demon. But there's nothing in the text itself about possession. And if we mean ownership by the word possession-
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
[speaker_2]
... well, the ownership question is settled.
Sean McDowell
Right.
Clint Arnold
Completely settled once and for all.
Sean McDowell
Amen.
Clint Arnold
Because if we have been transferred from the kingdom of darkness and brought into the kingdom of the Son, uh, we are now owned by God. And possession terminology in the Bible, and there is possession terminology, it only goes one way. Uh, we are possessed by God. We are owned by God. We are sealed by the Spirit. We completely belong to Him. Um, Satan cannot come in and steal away God's ownership of us. I mean, he does not have that power-
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Clint Arnold
... to do that. So, we can really rest assured in that. I think that, that question is really easily settled. But then the follow-up then is, so then what can he do? What can he do? And I think we need to be careful of seeing ourselves either immune to the influence of the demonic-
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Clint Arnold
... or seeing or minimizing the ways that Satan can afflict and harm and torment and do whatever else he's gonna do. I think we recognize that he's still on a very long leash and he can still create a lot of mischief-
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Clint Arnold
... create a lot of pain, torment, and harm, and that's what we need to be concerned with while resting in the fact that we are possessed by God. Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell
I was asked a question recently I want, and I, this is roughly the answer that I gave. I'm curious if you would agree, disagree, qualify it.
Clint Arnold
(laughs)
Sean McDowell
The question had to do with why, if Jesus was going to defeat Satan on the cross, would Satan be so committed to the crucifixion and death of Jesus? Like, we see Satan possessing-
Clint Arnold
Yeah.
Sean McDowell
... Judas in the Gospel of John, clearly leading him to betray Jesus that leads to His crucifixion. But then afterwards, why would Satan and the demons keep fighting if they know they've lost?
Clint Arnold
Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell
And my quick answer was, "I don't think Satan understood before..." I mean, there's the passage in Paul that's like, "If they understood, they would not have killed Jesus." And that's my, my paraphrase. Afterwards, I think they're just acting, they've lost, and they're acting consistent with their nature. Again, John 8, this is what demons and Satan are, and they act out their character, even though now Satan is smart enough to know that he's lost. Agree, disagree, qualify? How would you answer that?
Clint Arnold
Yeah. I, I don't know what he's thinking. (laughs)
Sean McDowell
(laughs)
[speaker_2]
(laughs)
Clint Arnold
Give up, man.
Sean McDowell
That's fair. (laughs) That's fair.
Clint Arnold
Give up. You have been defeated.
Sean McDowell
(laughs)
Clint Arnold
And Christ, in His wisdom, outsmarted you on the cross, and God, in His wisdom, through the death of Christ has made it now such that, uh, the name Satan means accuser.
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Clint Arnold
And so prior to the cross, Satan could bring an accusation before God.
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Clint Arnold
And it could stick because he's right. After the cross, with our sins covered by the blood of Christ and atoned for and forgiven, there is no just accusation that Satan can bring. So, uh, give it up, man. (laughs) But it-- I've- I've been reading through Revelation again recently-
Sean McDowell
Mm.
Clint Arnold
... and, uh, it, it's been so encouraging to my soul. But in Revelation 20, even after the thousand years, Satan is released for a little time-
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Clint Arnold
... and he still rebels and s- leads, tries to lead a rebellion against God. I don't get it. I don't understand why he just doesn't roll over, give up, and say, "Okay, God, you won." But he fights to the bitter end.
Sean McDowell
Mm.
[speaker_2]
Now, Clint, you describe in your book there are lots of different ways in which believers can give Satan a foothold. Um, w- what does it-- what d- how would you d- what d- what would you say it means that the command not to give the devil a foothold? How- how can we-
Sean McDowell
Mm.
[speaker_2]
... keep from doing that, and I guess how can we be aware of what some of these inroads are that, you know, may just go right over our heads?
Clint Arnold
Yeah. I think it's important to keep in mind that, um, our battle isn't only against Satan. So the Scripture makes it abundantly clear that we're- we're dealing with the- the world, the flesh, and the devil. And so when we're talking about the flesh, uh, I don't have to blame it on Satan if I have a lustful thought or an angry thought. It can come fr- right from within because I'm bent towards sin because of the impact of Adam's sin at the beginning. Um, likewise, uh, I live in a world that is broken and, uh, is headed in a path that's directed away from God. And so, uh, there's constant peer pressure, ideologies, thoughts that come in and shape the way I think. That's something I struggle with, too. So where does Satan fit in? I feel like he's like a- the Joker. Uh, he energizes and empowers certain things.
Sean McDowell
Mm.
Clint Arnold
So don't let the sun go down on your wrath. Don't give the devil a foothold. Um, again, anger can come from within, and it may come from, um, a place where I've been hurt, I've been abused, and there's anger there that I need to deal with. And I think the warning about giving, uh, a foothold, uh, by prolonging that anger is that Satan can exploit it. He will exploit the natural vices that we have and empower it. Um, I grew up on a farm, and I spent a lot of time, um, with farm kinds of things. And we use, uh, fire to, uh, burn off weeds at the end of our fields and so on. But if you have a fire going and you take a can of gasoline and pour it on-
Sean McDowell
Hm.
Clint Arnold
... the fire, what happens? It just goes out of control. I mean, it's dangerous to pour a can of gasoline on a fire 'cause it, it can really explode in your face. And I feel like Satan i- is looking for smoke. He's looking for a fire.
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Clint Arnold
A natural passion that is maybe, uh, not being dealt with. And then he sees his opportunity and exploits that natural passion by pouring gas on it, and it rages out of control. And now you've got a real big problem in, in your life. Um, so i- in not giving a foothold, it means keeping short accounts with God on things that we would naturally struggle with given the way-
Sean McDowell
Mm.
Clint Arnold
... you know, are bent in propensity towards sin. Uh, not giving ourselves the luxury of enjoying sin over a period of time because if we continue in a pattern of sinful behavior, it can get exploited, and then there's dynamics here that are spiritual and Satan takes advantage of that. That's one of the ways I would-
[speaker_2]
That's really helpful.
Clint Arnold
... conceptualize it. Yeah.
[speaker_2]
No, that's helpful.
Sean McDowell
A- a- as I think about Ephesians, it seems like there's a couple ways Satan could have a foothold, or a few ways. Number one would be causing disunity 'cause of course Ephesians is about unity in the body.
[speaker_2]
Yeah.
Sean McDowell
So if we allow disunity, back to your point at the very beginning, that's a foothold for Satan in the church. Of course, morally, like you said, sin in my life, letting the sun go down on my anger could be, but also false doctrine. There's a lot in Ephesians-
[speaker_2]
Definitely.
Sean McDowell
... about protecting what we think. So really it's our, our minds, what we believe. Don't give Satan a foothold with bad theology and bad doctrine. Also with how we live and with disunity in the church. It seems like it covers all those to me. So this is such an interesting point. You said there's three sources of evil because you said the world, the flesh, and the devil. So just for clarity for everybody, it's wrong to attribute everything to Satan and demons. It's also wrong to ignore Satan and demons. It's also wrong to ignore the role of the world, and of course the world can mean different things. It can be everybody. It could be, uh, who Jesus dies for arguably, or it could be kind of the sinful wrong ideas opposed to God that exist. That's how the world exists, and that's what you're referring to. So this is probably not the question you're expecting me to ask. If evil comes from the world, the devil, and the flesh, a question I get asked all the time is, "Why won't we sin in heaven?" Well, the world has been transformed.
[speaker_2]
Yeah.
Sean McDowell
Satan is gone, and we're fully new creatures transformed in our flesh-So by our free will, we won't ever sin because the three things that cause evil are gone. Would you agree-
Clint Arnold
Praise God.
Sean McDowell
... with that assessment?
Clint Arnold
I agree 150%. (laughs)
Sean McDowell
150%? That's a pretty good grade.
Clint Arnold
No, He's taking away all of that. And so, in our glorified state, we will no longer have this inclination coming from within t- to sin. And Satan is gone, and the i- ideologies and world pressures are gone.
Sean McDowell
Mm.
Clint Arnold
So we... I just love the way you put it. I mean, we are... Our natural desire will be to please God and walk with Him-
Sean McDowell
So-
Clint Arnold
... and worship Him.
Sean McDowell
Oh, sorry. I didn't mean to cut you off. So, how should we prioritize these? 'Cause I look at the world, the devil, and the flesh, and it seems like the Church arguably spends more time fighting against the world as opposed to the flesh or maybe the devil. Should we prioritize these? Is that the wrong question? Is the Church-
Clint Arnold
No, man.
Sean McDowell
... priority different than individual priority?
[speaker_2]
Here's, here's my question, is why does it matter-
Sean McDowell
Why-
[speaker_2]
... that we, that we isolate where those things are coming from? I mean, we, we've got... We know we have issues. We know we're in disobedience to God. You know, what-
Sean McDowell
Well, it matters 'cause if we're fighting the world, some people would say we've gotta focus on politics and we've gotta focus on countering our energy as externally focused as opposed to the flesh might be more internally focused is what I mean.
Clint Arnold
Gotcha, yeah. I think it's about keeping them in balance.
Sean McDowell
Okay.
Clint Arnold
I think it's when we get out of balance and we neglect completely the role of the demonic, the role of the devil, then we're vulnerable. If we completely neglected the fact that we have pressures coming to us from media, pressures coming to us from, uh, various ideologies and political f- ideas and so on, if we neglect that, we're vulnerable. And if we neglect the fact that we have these sinful tendencies, we're vulnerable. And I think addressing all three-
[speaker_2]
Mm-hmm.
Clint Arnold
... uh, i- is important in this. So it, it strikes me as you were talking there, I was thinking of Ephesians 4 that talks about God giving gifted people to the Church and the role is to equip the saints to do the work of the ministry, and the passage goes on to describe so that, uh, we are no longer tossed to and fro by the wind, uh, by every wind of doctrine, so the false teaching, and by human cunning, uh, the world's ideas and so on, and by the craftiness of deceit. And the language that Paul uses there feathers into the demonic-
Sean McDowell
Mm.
Clint Arnold
... once again. And so I mention this because the Church is really important in a, i- in this situation. It's not just me preparing myself for combat in the world. It's me as a corporate entity, uh, with the Church, um, and it's important to remember that Jesus told Peter, he says, "I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it."
Sean McDowell
Mm.
Clint Arnold
And the gates of hell will really try.
Sean McDowell
Mm.
Clint Arnold
And that's where we're struggling right now as a church. The gates of hell are really trying, and they're being successful-
Sean McDowell
Mm.
Clint Arnold
... in a number of different ways. Um, we have to focus our energies on-
Sean McDowell
Mm.
Clint Arnold
... on building the Church, uh, and that's a big part of the message of Ephesians, but with the recognition that there's spiritual opposition.
Sean McDowell
Mm.
[speaker_2]
I think there are times where the gates of hell have given the Church (claps hands) quite a run for its money.
Sean McDowell
(laughs)
Clint Arnold
Yeah.
[speaker_2]
Um-
Sean McDowell
That's a fact.
[speaker_2]
Now, you know, throughout this conversation, Clint, you've, you've used the term spiritual warfare.
Clint Arnold
Mm-hmm.
[speaker_2]
Uh, and I think that t- that warfare term is intentional. But tell us a little bit more about what kind o... exactly what kind of warfare are we in, and how, how can the believer best wage that war?
Clint Arnold
Yeah, I think it's important to emphasize the word spiritual at the beginning. Uh, it is a, a, a, a way of viewing life, a way of viewing reality where we recognize that it's not just me living my life the best I can until Jesus comes back to get me. It's me recognizing seeing that, um, I'm living my life, but there are supernatural entities that are trying to, uh, cause me to fall. They're trying to create situations and create things that would take me away from my devotion to Christ.
[speaker_2]
Mm.
Clint Arnold
That is opposition. And so, how do I stand up to that kind of opposition, especially if it's supernatural, supernaturally intelligent, supernaturally powerful? And, and that causes me to realize I cannot do this on my own. It's not just a matter of effort. It's a matter of connection. And I need to be connected to someone who is more powerful than me. I need to be connected to someone who is more powerful than this supernatural-
[speaker_2]
Mm.
Clint Arnold
... opposition. And so, that's why Paul says in Ephesians 6:10, "Be strong," but he doesn't put a period there. It's, "Be strong in the Lord," uh, in connection with Jesus Christ, uh, because that's where we find our, our strength and our encouragement and help. So cultivating that relationship with Christ is crucial.
Sean McDowell
So my last question for you is I've, I've interviewed a number of different people that are, are exorcists or work in deliverance ministries, both Catholics and Protestants, and my interest is less to nuance some of those differences but just to highlight the supernatural forces at play, the reality of evil and kinda what's in common across those deliverance approaches.A- as a whole, what is Paul contributing, particular in Colossians and Ephesians, to how we should approach exorcism and deliverance ministries? Like, what are a few of the particular points that he makes that everyone should keep in mind when approaching real demonic oppression, if it's not possession?
Clint Arnold
Yeah. Fantastic question. It's... I think the foundational verse for understanding this whole phenomenon and spiritual warfare and, "How am I to live in light of all this?" is Colossians 2:9-10.
Sean McDowell
Hmm.
Clint Arnold
Um, Colossians 2:9-10 gives us a picture of Christ, and then it gives us a picture of who we are in relationship to Christ. It says, "For in Christ, all the fullness of the deity lives bodily."
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Clint Arnold
I- it's a magnificent view of Christ. "All the fullness of the deity lives in him in bodily form, and you have been filled in him who is the head over every rule and authority, every power and authority, every demonic spirit." Uh, so Jesus is supreme, but we're in connection with Jesus, and this means we can share in his power and authority. Now, by implication, what that practically means is that if I'm perceiving myself to be in some kind of spiritual conflict, uh, spiritual attack, it doesn't mean that I have to run out and find an exorcist.
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Clint Arnold
It doesn't mean that I have to go find a shaman figure or anything like that.
Sean McDowell
(laughs) Sure.
Clint Arnold
Uh, it means that I am personally in connection with Jesus and I share in his power and authority over that realm, and on that basis, I can stand up against this.
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Clint Arnold
But I need to appropriate that through prayer and through, uh, maybe even a word of command at that point, because I have that authority in Christ to stand up in that.
Sean McDowell
That's a great answer. When you read... or when you mentioned that verse, it gave me goosebumps because I've been studying the Gospel of John.
Clint Arnold
Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell
And just from the opening verse, right? "In the beginning was the Word, who was-"
Clint Arnold
Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell
"... with God and who was God."
Clint Arnold
Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell
The deity of Christ is just all through John 1-
Clint Arnold
Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell
... and John 5 and 8 and 10 and, and so on. Paul says the exact same thing. Again, I'm preaching soon at my, my church on John 14:15-17, in which it says, "I will give you another helper."
Clint Arnold
Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell
The Spirit is a person like Jesus is. The Spirit is God like Jesus, will help us like Jesus did. We have that Spirit dwelling within us. So, we have the ability, based on our position with Christ and his Spirit inside of us, like you're saying, to resist the powers of Satan if we'll access it in the way that you did through prayer, repentance of sin, maybe the body of Christ, et cetera. So, that starting point is just-
Clint Arnold
Yeah.
Sean McDowell
... is, is beautiful.
Clint Arnold
Yeah.
Sean McDowell
Such a good reminder. I have so many more questions for you-
Clint Arnold
(laughs)
Sean McDowell
... Dr. Clint Arnold. I think this deserves a part two and maybe even a part three, but so helpful. Thanks for writing this book. It really is timeless. The opening chapter places it in 1992.
Clint Arnold
(laughs)
Sean McDowell
But I read it, I'm like, "This could be yesterday."
Clint Arnold
Yeah.
Sean McDowell
I would make the case that I think even the church and the culture is more open to supernatural phenomena, and I could do that, and naturalism is being squeezed a little bit. So, I think your book, Powers of Darkness, is as timely and relevant as it's ever been. (upbeat music) So, thanks for coming on. Thanks for great answers. This is really fun.
[speaker_2]
Great. Good stuff.
Clint Arnold
Great. Great to be with you guys.
Sean McDowell
Those of you watching, make sure you hit subscribe. We've got other conversations like this coming up. This is brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at 51蹤獲. We've got master's programs where you can have Clint, Scott, or myself in class. Theology, Old Testament. We have a lot of classes on spiritual warfare, apologetics, spiritual formation. Uh, we have in-person and online programs. Uh, send your comments in. You can email us at thinkbiblically@biola.edu, and we answer those weekly in our weekly cultural update. In the meantime, remember to think biblically about everything. (upbeat music)
